craft experimenting for basic recipes is pointless

--I can understand, after one knows a basic recipe, that experimentation might yield some "hidden" recipes that have additional attributes. I like the idea of "active" experimentation as opposed to "chance of learning new recipe" upon making something from a basic recipe.
--But for basic recipes, once some player discovers them, they are going to be published (already are for some) and distributed such that a "new" avatar will just refer to the player knowledge base, not laboriously try over and over to learn a basic recipe.
--Laborious experimentation for "basic" recipes therefore, seems pointless.

 

Exploration and discovery are interesting to some users, so having the option to look for them oneself satisfies that demographic.

As for myself, I will simply look them up on the internet once I require them for crafting.

The devs have noted that some recipes will be provided via conversation with the locals, the text has simply not been added to the game as yet.

 

Agreed.

Plus there isn't any point of reference (unless you are a historian or study medieval crafting techniques) what it takes to even make the basic stuff.

 

I expect a huge leap in usability. I'm sure the devs are well aware of the gw2 system, which has similar discovery mechanics.

Most basic recipes shouldn't go through a discover process.
I should easily see how many of a know rec I can craft and / or what's missing and craft without moving things around.
I should be able to see things which "want" to be combined. i.e. I can see that "dragon fire" could go into my sword craft but I'm still missing something which I don't yet have...

 

I can see your point but I can also see it being more. Imagine if they added a new high end item that had a really bizarre set of ingredients, ingredients that did not fit expectations. A person could stumble onto the recipe by sheer chance and then have an exclusive ware to use or sell at least until they share the recipe or someone else stumbles onto it.

 

I think your recipe book should start out with the most basic recipe for each craft (for instance, an iron ingot, a sword hilt, thread, hardened leather, timber/board/bark, etc.) This would give you the basic building blocks from which to begin experimenting, and would give new players an insight into 'how' crafting works. One recipe per craft is NOT giving away that much.

 

It would be helpful if there was some sort of suggestion system. Maybe if a resource or tool can't be used to make anything on a given table -- iron ore on the Textiles Table for example -- then that resource or tool will bounce back to the bag. That way I don't have to try every random resource combination, but if one resource works, it will stick and I know I'm getting closer to making something.

 

I really kinda like the system as it stands now. It was kinda a pain in the *** but I figure if you are gaining skill somehow while trying different combinatiins its no more tedious than any other skill gaining system.

Baralis makes a good point also. The really rare recipes would never be shared because people would only create competition for themselves. Although that would all depend on whether or not you could get various recipes from just looking at the game files somehow...

 

Hmm... Perhaps a local character could provide suggestions, like that annoying fellow who currently spams you at the Crafting pavilion right now.

You could ask them how to create a "Long Sword", and they could suggest the various ingredients necessary to make one (or perhaps allude to it, if one still wanted some mystery).

 

would it be to helpful if when you had a crafting table selected, a inventory filter would only show the items you could actually use at that station?

 

As a UO crafter, I personally like the crafting system so far. I got a bit frustrated before I realized that I had to use _exact quantities_ for things, but once I got that sorted, I discovered quite a few recipes without even using the hints from the release notice.

What concerns me, and this will affect marketability later on, is that most "new players" into a game do not want to have to go through the discovery route. They will get frustrated, angry, storm off and bad mouth the system. There's been a trend of gamers wanting the quick-fix (a la advanced character purchases in several MMOs). Even the most basic of recipes kinda got me irked. I have some foundry & carpentry background IRL so they shoulda been a snap, but the majority of my stream from last night was figuring out how to smelt ore (and then I had that "duh" moment). If I get irked, as an OCD in-game crafter & merchant, imagine a newbie's reaction.

Assuming everyone's approximate starting age in the game is in the tweens, some very simple basic recipes should be common knowledge (hammer + board = simple board shelf) that sort of thing. Even my 3 year old grandson could figure that one out. Although, he will look around for nails...

It will be fun and interesting to document and graph the crafting trees. I'm looking forward to gathering resources now!

 

I think there have been some great suggestions here. I particularly support basic recipes being included. As for sheer number of combinations, with a dozen possible ingredients, a couple of different tools and an unknown number of items used, the total possible combinations can number in the trillions. Yes, with a T. Just knowing that somewhere in there is a correct combination is a bit overwhelming. I have crafted heavily in all the games I have played for years, I have some RL experience with crafting but even so some of the recipes where surprising to me. (For instance bark being used during spinning.) I like the idea of discovery, but I think there needs to be some sign posts to point the direction. Including the basic recipes is a great way to do this. (Frankly the only way I was able to get thread was to check a cheat list of recipes, because I would never use bark to do it.)

I don't want anyone to get the wrong idea however. I have played many betas where things were not as functional as they already are in SotA. The crafting system as it is now surpasses many games and holds the potential to be the best we've ever seen.

 

Good feedback.

 

I agree that some basic recipes knowledge should be accessible in game, maybe just reading crafting books you find around, or talking to the right NPC. Even at high end level recipes there should be some kind of tips here and there. Not leaving just experimentation the only way to find recipes, but exploring, reading books and talking to master crafters NPCs, or just obtaning tips via Quests, finding crafting tips as loot , etc.....

 

There is nothing wrong with the current crafting system. It is designed to make the game interesting to those who chose to craft and run shops. The harder the better I say. The more work you put in to discover the recipes the more money you will make. Just like if you spent your time doing PvP or PvE you eventually get better at it. Same with crafting. The more of you who fine it "pointless" or "boring" or "not fun" the more money I make! A++

 

I agree with you, in theory. I like a hard crafting system. But the reality is these recipes will be posted on other sites, as they already are.

And it comes to sheer numbers. I have seen recipes requiring as many as 12 (or 14?) items. At least one calls for 2 tools. So take carpentry; timbers, boards, poles, strips. 0 to 12 of those possible ingredients. Add rasp, saw, chisel, and/or hammer. This yields 82,944 possible combinations. If you can drop the ingredients onto the table and try the craft in only 60 seconds, that's just short of 60 days at 24 hours of nothing but trying recipes. Or about 9 months of 40 hours workweeks. I'd say eliminate the stupid combinations, but really you can't, because anything might be valid.

I'm not suggesting you should cut your hand on the saw and be given the recipe for a kings bed, but I am saying raw random experimentation is not a viable option. Add to that the possibility that increased skill in a craft will allow you to create items from recipes that previously were invalid and random testing becomes ludicrous.

But I do agree, this system is awesome. It could be the best ever designed. It is particularly impressive given that this is still an alpha state. BUT, in it's current form it is not ready for gold.

 

I have to disagree with the idea that experimentation should be the basis of any crafting system. Because it ignores two vital, and positive parts of the true crafter's art; Firstly the desire to teach others, and secondly the wish to create community services. If a dragon is really molesting your city, would the true crafter equip an army, or sit saying "nuh uh, If'n I do that, then my weapons won't be special"...?

Combine that with people brute forcing or code mining to get the recipes, and I can't see how you can possibly avoid annoying far too many people in their first experiences of crafting for very little roleplay gain. I can see where the idea it might be popular comes from, Minecraft didn't publish it's recipes and it's a large part of it's DIY ethos; but be honest, the majority of people just went to the Wiki for them the moment they got stuck. Perhaps SotA is expecting that, and is just adding an in game record of the recipes so you only have to Wiki each one once, but that's still missing out on what the MMO crafter really wants to feel part of... the multiplayer part.

Thus then I'd rather see all basic crafting known, fixed and teachable, from NPCs or other players... but leave experimentation perhaps along the lines of snapping planks together like lego... or even like Kerbal Space Program treats Craft files. I'm not sure if it's even reachable with the development time available, but that would allow people to be creative without needing to guess; they'd literally be the designer of their own chair. It does however open up the risk of giant wooden phalluses. And would probably add to load time and memory usage if people had to download Chair Files and visually generate on the fly unique constructions.

So if that wasn't practical, then a range of pre-fixed constructions that have extremely rare odds to work; say adding a compass to a sword which generates a sword with a compass in the hilt, and once it does that player knows how to make it every time.

Maybe even allow people who submit their own Unity artwork unique rights to make that item?

That's getting a bit too elitist I fear, which is why I've always thought more ways to add connections between crafter and user would satisfy the sense of being part of a community a true crafter holds. So here's another idea; why not allow people to attach magic sigils as crafting marks to their items, which when magic words are said to them, cause a glowing arrow to point to either the crafter (if he's online and in your game), or to the crafter's home and likely more of his wares?

Or alternatively, if the crafter uses arcane powders on a sword, and slays a thousand goblins with it, or powders his behind and sits in a chair for a thousand hours, he unlocks the right to associate future crafted items in some way with it's bound target; a sword that glows when goblins are near, or a chair that walks itself across and under your tush to be sat on when it hears the command "Sit!" Typical MMo grinds I admit, but the results would be so specialised and simply for flavour few crafters would consider chasing them unless they really wanted to be known for magic chairs.

Or maybe just true "experimentation" is a dream outside of games specifically designed to encourage it as the main gameplay mechanic (Cf: Kerbal). All I can say for now is that, in an unknown Alpha state, I've had more fun exploring Kingsport than I have crafting; I literally found the tools, realised I needed to spend hours guessing, and just logged out I'm afraid. But it wasn't quite as upsetting as discovering you can't now kidnap my beloved Mertyl the Moo Cow... Cows are no longer solid! Damn you all.

 

Sorry guys but I think the UO crafting system still does it best. Discovery is a fun and useful idea, but as it stands it seems a little overboard when I can't even make an ingot. It's like needing to invent fire before you can learn to cook. That might take a few ages.

I've played them all - SWG, Vanguard, and EQ2 ... while these are all heralded as great crafting systems, they always seemed a bit contrived to me. As if saying, " Hi, I'm a mini-game disguised as a crafting system, aren't I neat?"

Nothing beats the simplicity of the UO crafting system for me. It's still the most basic and logical. It's casual, enjoyable (not grinding if you enjoy it!) but can be serious as well, depending on your time investment.

 

UO is still the absolute best crafting system for me as well. A large part of the enjoyment for me was the gathering system. getting resources from places that made sense, chopping wood from trees, or making kindling if you used a dagger instead of an axe... mining with its variety of ore types, skinning animals for leather, meat, feathers, etc.

I dont mind a little bit of experimentation and discovery, I dont mind having to discover new and interesting recipes, but it needs to be a lot simpler and more intuitive. In UO you could attempt your recipe as long as you had the ingredients in your pack and were using the right tool, and you knew what tool you needed because you double clicked on them to bring up your crafting menus.

I like the crafting tables idea but having to have exact numbers of items on the table is tedious, and having no clue what ingredients to even try or what tool is needed is just incredibly frustrating.

 

I like crafting in UO, especially since they added the recipe quests - just instantly knowing what everyone else knows with a patch got very... boring. Until everyone farmed all the recipes, it was a whole lot of joy in getting them. That is why I very much like the discoverable recipes in SotA. It is interesting and might have me crafting more than I normally would in a game actually.

In the RP sense of the world, it does lend toward specialized crafters in SotA - someone who spends the time, resources and energy to _really_ learn the multitude of combinations to create items would need to have a real serious sense of dedication (or just be an OCD idiot like myself). I find it interesting though that by throwing random stuffs together I came up with recipes that, really, surprised me. (Seriously, just WHAT does bark have to do with spinning flax into thread? really now!!! Yeah, I can see it being used to make the shuttle, but I'd expect the shuttle to be a separate item with minimal carpentry skill; so you carve a shuttle, then need the shuttle with flax for spinning).

I think what it comes down to is exactly WHAT will determine a person's ability to discover any certain combination of items for a recipe? Right now, we are all "maxxed out" toons with apparent super powers (i don't even want to calculate weight carried recently!) - but I will _really_ be upset that once we "go live" any Joe-Blow can go around throwing random items together to discover a very rare recipe, by accident. Yeah, I'd be very upset with that. How will skill level be calculated/achieved/tracked? I don't think using the UO-style of "skill points" or even the grinding method of other games would suffice - but I don't want to be limited to being _only_ a carpenter or blacksmith... after all, IRL I do all sorts of crafting for fun, making money, and sharing with others. Everything from spinning angora rabbit fur to replacing my own floors and roof to even drop forging a damascus dagger and of course, cooking wonderfully experimental foods! I can make a chain-mail coif in about a week if I really put my mind to it, and embroider celtic knot patterns onto a wool cloak I wove myself over the summer. Please don't limit us to skill points (that's why I have 4 crafters between 3 accounts in UO).

I still believe some common-knowledge types of recipes should be innate (learned as children before starting to adventure), and others passed along from NPCs - definitely - for a fee (gold sink) or even in the far future, a rare sort of NPC that will teach a crafter of certain experience a very special combination of items for an outrageous amount of funds - and will add revenue with the cash store a well as the crafter's pockets, eh?