What PvP Players can look forward to

This should also happen organically as the game observes you and learns about who you choose to friend and/or group with. Over what will probably be a fairly short period, its sorting should ensure that you basically only ever see other PvP-flagged players, based on your preferences and the friends graph.

 

No, Talmanes... you're making some bad assumptions... The primary reason for limiting the number of avatars in a given instance of a hex is for performance. This must be the highest concern. Increasing the number of PvP-flagged avatars that may be in the same hex instance isn't going to happen because the server performance must be the primary concern. Also, while it will likely be more probable that there will be more PvP-flagged avatars in a given hex instance in high population hexes, I would think it unreasonable to believe that there will never be non-flagged avatars in the same hex. Likewise, in low population hexes, I think it would be unreasonable to expect that there will be multiple instances of hexes created just to separate the flagged from the non-flagged avatars. It would be a waste of server bandwidth to have 2 instances of a single hex that contains a single flagged avatar and a single unflagged avatar for example.

And, Yes... in high population hexes, assuming enough PvP flagged avatars are in the same hex... those PvP avatars may be split across multiple instances of the hex. No system is perfect.

Also, I will express no opinion on the inner workings of PvP so long as I am not forced to PvP.

 

Talmanes, PvE butt into threads when they see someone feels the need to change the consent aspect. That, and just because people butt in and disagree does not mean they are PvE.

Player sorting was discussed pretty often during the kickstarter. It's going to be an area of debate for a while.
The PvE side should be simple:
Friends/Family > Guild > Recent encounter > Relative level > Like interests

For PvP, on the other hand, it will be complicated:
Friends/Family - should you always be sorted with Friends/Family first
Guild - same as F/F
Recent encounter - should rank pretty high or run into your hunting reds issue
Relative level - should be near the top IMO
Like interests - Flagged PvP should be the first filter

 

Way to ignore what you don't like.

The reason that we, ALL of the players of this game, should be involved in the PvP discussions (as well as the combat discussions, the story discussions, the skills discussions, the crafting discussions, etc) is that everyone CAN do all of it. The reason that LB has said that they aren't going to separate the PvP and the PvE players is because they don't WANT to. Most of the PvP players seem to agree that the more people that flag to PvP, whether it be for a 15 minute quest or jaunt into a Meteor strike hex, permanently through the Blessing and never switch back, and everything in between, the better. You may prefer those PvE people "go away" into their own instances, but that's neither the way it will be, or the way most people want it.

That's not to say that I don't hope that you and everyone else who goes Blessing or PvP guild doesn't have the sense and experience of an open PvP world; I do! I just think it's shortsighted to not want anyone who isn't exactly like you in it too.

 

Thanks Codex, if this system works it could give everyone the game they want.

Rufus, I don't think it's unreasonable to completely separate pvp flagged from non pvp flagged cause our play styles are in such a conflict. If a PVE players exists in Open PVP hex instance then the hex instance is no longer open pvp the same as if a PK got a PVE instance with the ability to scratch someone. We can probably do this anyway by adding any pve players to the ignore list so might as well just separate it. If open PVP hexes do exceed the performance limit then rosters per open pvp instance might be a good idea so we can pick the instance we want to go into. I would rather have higher limits without the technology performance restrictions to open pvp instances cause it is an important part of the play style.

What about Opt Out, Opt Out/In Hybrid and Opt in completely. For PVP that want to also see PVE they can choose Opt Out/In Hybrid and it's as easy as an additional filter option.

 

Phredicon, the PVE players are doing the same thing to people that want the seamless open pvp world. People that will never participate in non consensual pvp do not need to worry about the pvp flagged option and if they want to participate in that conversation they need to put on the open pvp hat and throw consensual pvp out the window cause it would only apply to people that have consented. And unless you think this game will tank there will be enough players who want open pvp to fill an instance the size they have discussed easily. PVE guys are literally chasing off pvp players cause you aren't understanding the game world these guys are putting together. The filter is required for this model to run and the filter can give each person the game they want, and people like me want open pvp and you can join us if you wish. We'd love to have you.

Devs, you better invest heavily in the hardware cause if you do this right you will blow out your equipment. You could have MILLIONS of players, prepare for the success.

 

I didn't say it was unreasonable to completely separate the populations, though in doing so you've effectively recreated Trammel and Felucca, or a completely seperate server like Siege Perilous. I said it would be unreasonable to expect that this will happen.

There is no such thing as a Open PvP hex instance outside an instance of an Open PvP designated hex.
I.E. if you're in an Open PvP designate hex, all instances of that hex will be Open PvP and any avatar in any instance of that hex will be flagged as PvP, whether by completing the Oracle quest, or by their presence in that hex. I.E. There is no PvE player in an Open-PvP hex.
Any instance of a Non-PvP hex will be Non-PvP to all other than to those who are flagged through the Oracle Quest for world-wide Open PvP. Part of the matching algorithm will be to put such avatars into the same hex instance with other similarly flagged avatars. I think it is unreasonable to expect that this will be 100% segregation.

 

Well even Pony Express didn't get attacked that often as in many Open PvP games.

Just as have been said several times: The total freedom in a game brings out the worst in a some people and that ruin the game for all the other players. Okay you can have a kill rate that is higher than any civilization ever would have survived in real life but there is a upper limit when people start leaving the game and the game dies a slow death. I strongly believe that a free open PvP world will make that to SotA, and any other game that are trying to attract role players for that matter.

 

Rufus, do you think you'll have 3,000 people playing this game? I'm guessing if they can manage it with the hardware they'll top 500,000 easily within the first 6 months. To think that there won't be enough players to instance a hex of nothing but world wide open pvp in the sub 300 player numbers per instance? Even if they had 1,000 hexes dispersing that population evenly they would still have over the limit requiring multiple instances. How is that unreasonable, if just 10% want open world pvp and flag for it? I think the bigger issue here is you have thread after thread of arguments over this that don't factor in the simple idea of an instance with nothing but open world pvpers which will and should happen. All the lost discussions of how open world pvp should look cause pve didn't accept that they wouldn't be a part of that due to the flag. Thanks to Phredicon and Codex I think I have a pretty good understanding of how this will work and for all pvpers out there I see no reason we won't get the Ultima Game we want if we flag for open world pvp. I ask PVE players to understand the same reason you won't get attacked is the same reason we won't see you, ever, never ever, unless you consent to pvp and come into our world. We'll see your vendor though, we'll tell him/her to say hello.

 

The reason developers cater to PvEers is because they are very vocal. The most popular game play will never be competing against artificial intelligence. It never can compare to competing against other human beings. Anyone who thinks that competing against an AI is as challenging doesn't understand AI.

AI is good at following simple rules similar to those in a game of chess, however when competing in an open, dynamic world like SoTA it gets a lot trickier.

PS. I had a lot of fun ganking wandering healers in UO with 10 friends, mashing buttons with 10 players in Stratholme on Baron was a fun challenge as well.

 

It's hard to say that a 3D game took off over a non-3D game cause of play mechanics. I mean let's face it, they cant even be compared. This also happens to be why a lot of us UO2 fanes were P.O.'ed when thye pulled hte plug on it cause "UO2 would compete with UO". God! Dont get me started on the ignorance in that statement #EAStinks

But was is important to not is comparing the two play styles in the same game. I mean, there's no arguing the graph is sky rocketing up, and it's momentum clearly tappers off after Tram. This is where the passion for an open free world comes from by the Open PvP'ers. Once the game is over, and the quests are done, most games (Now SotA included) block you from being freely challenge and experiencing Player forced quests(fighting for my life from a murder is a great example). And UO, and other games that have Open PvP DID do that aspect wrong(minus EVE obviously). You really need a justice system, so you are making sure that griefers are battered down and only people that truely want to play a murder are left(a much lesser number and to be honest, they are much more fun cause they get into RPing the role out with you).

 

Since we are speaking in such broad terms...

Ever think that those PvE'ers became that way because the PvP they played was broken? Until there is a PvP system that is not broken, consent is the only way to go. Even then, with a perfect PvP system, devs will not get people to try PvP without showing it has no imbalances first.

 

Because among other desires, the developers desire to have, and have constructed an architecture to support a single world rather than the multiple shards that were used for Ultima Online. It's unreasonable because that's not what the developers want.

 

That is what I'm hoping for. I think as people figure out how selective multi-player + open pvp quest can bring them the gameplay they have been looking for we'll be getting a lot of those players.

However, the way the system currently works, if I did the open pvp quest, and someone on my friends list doesn't have open pvp, he'll still get sorted into my instance. So I'll see him and can't attack him, along with all the other guys in the instance. Now if he joins my group, heals me he'll get flagged for open pvp as well.

We'll see how well that works out during beta and there might be some tweaking. I'd prefer it if we can interact with different groups but there might be too many situations of non-pvp people messing with the pvp people.


I believe they currently have the max number of people per scene at 60, but their systems can handle doing more. However, I believe for many scenes (especially outside of towns) they'll limit that way down, you don't want a popular dungeon filled with 60 people, they'll cap it at 5 or 20 or even down to 1, to give the right challenge that they want. You also don't want a forest hex populated with 60 people killing everything and taking all the resources so new people can't do anything. If this game does get that popular where we have 1 million people and we have 16,000 playable hexes,(total map is 128x128 hexes) thats 62 people per hex.. except that most people will clump up near points of interest.


Also: towns/cities aren't safe in open pvp, you can still attack people, but expect guards to react. So it will likely be dangerous to attack people in town, but not impossible. There is no extension for protection leaving town because once you leave town you are in the overland map.

As someone else said, One way to to get pvp-only people is to add pvp-only people to your friends list and then play in friends play online only. THen you get the full pre-trammel experience for sure. (Make it an online group where you all have to friend everyone so it's fair..if you can get 5,000 people to do it that's a pretty well stocked server)

 

So what are the size of these hexes? If they are the equivalence of the server lines in UO then that's a huge world, if they are like a dungeon lvl in diablo then that's really small.

 

Perfect AI can be an impossible challenge you can't beat. because they do everything flawlessly, the only way to match it is create your own macros with perfect timing. They intentionally don't make AI that good in games because it would be so challenging to win not many people would play it. (challenging as in basically impossible without cheating yourself). They can make bots in game head-shot you every single time as soon as you are a usable target (not blocked by walls). They don't do that because you can't win then.

There was someone on these boards that talked about an AI PK he made for a UO free shard, it was undefeated.

 

There's a difference between being a "challenge" and having instantaneous reaction times due to AI scripting.

The AI will always be simple to manipulate because it follows its scripted commands. AI is predictable and will ultimately fall into a loop of behavior. This has been the case with every video game in existence.

 

RG said average hex size would be 2km(This was early on), but there are variations. so if it's average at 2km then it would be 65,536 square km, for comparison, WoW is 206 square km.

I think it would be more like 16,000 though based on the size of each hex I saw in the pre-alpha. tough to say for sure. Once it's done the dev's could tell us the total size.


here is an article to consider when comparing game world sizes: http://massively.joystiq.com/2013/08/18/eve-evolved-does-eve-online-have-the-worlds-largest-mmo-map/ part of it depends on how fast you can travel through the game world. Comparing something like eve: online to a world where you move at a fraction of the speed isn't exactly the same.

 

I've cleaned up some of the posts in this thread. Please be kind to each other.

 

Rufus, the design is for filtered instances not a continuous open world like uo, we could be standing in the exact same place in a different instance. They basically made it like cross shard gameplay with shards consisting of unique hex instances. The instances are tailored to your gameplay with the possibility of adding strangers. What I'm basically saying is you are a stranger I don't want in my hex instance cause you have this odd shield that won't allow me correct any rude behavior (not that you would ever be rude).