Consensual pvp???? Stay a While and Listen Why this is no fun.....

Right, so would you save those high value consumables and be more likely to stay and fight?

Now's the tricky part, how would you know you are being looted or not. The race to resurrect is part of the process to prevent being looted. You would not know until you get there.

 

Depends on the circumstance and I don't always make the same choices. Sometimes I may take a bigger risk then other times regardless of how the outcome appears. And if that's how its set up then I wouldn't know if I have been looted
until I got back to my corpse.

 

If I knew for a fact that I would be looted if I was killed, I wouldn't go into PvP. Problem solved.

 

I have a hard time grasping this. But it sounds like you have a very good understanding on all this. I was thinking about the need for mobs looting you the other day but forgot why. Its awesome to have folks like you in the debate for the sake of the game.

 

I think MOB looting, as long as it is sensible, is a great thing. A lich looting your reagents, a bear eating your fish, skeletons not looting at all.

 

lol

 

The problem with the entire loot debate is that it is inherently unrealistic, dealing with an unrealistic cause that I don't think any of us want to do away with.

Avatars are immortal, but they CAN be killed. There is NO sense to a system in which you can kill someone, and thirty seconds later they are alive again, at a different location, unharmed and ready to continue what they were doing. Even Jesus stayed dead for three days. The immortality of a video game character puts horror movie monsters and slasher-flick-zombies to shame. The question of what should happen to the equipment, of why said equipment should resurrect with the character, gets filed under the same issues as why avatars come back from the dead, or even how magick works.

Since none of that makes sense by EARTH physics and standards, none of it can be judged using earth based logic. So there is no rationale that demands any particular degree of loot based on IN game reasons.

This leaves OUT of game reasons. I've heard about how loot will create a gold sink, and loss of equpiment will drive the economy. I've never seen a REAL need for those things. There isn't a money sink in the REAL world economy, and it seems to have functioned for centuries without the real world drowning in money. It's almost as if a complex system of human behaviors and economic laws function to control the flow of money around the world. Those who manage to accumulate massive piles of money don't find that money randomly evaporating, nor are vast fortunes stolen in a single night by one industrious cat-burgler.

*I* believe that just giving us something to spend our accumulated money ON will be more than enough to keep the economy from overflowing with gold. One of the reasons that money accumulates in video games, both online and single player, is that the players run out of things to spend money on. Another reason is that various currencies are rendered pointless when a better form of currency is introduced that supersedes previous versions. The most common such form comes when a real money store is introduced, but near the end of it's popularity climb, WoW began introducing several new forms of currency every expansion, with each one being the only way to purchase new, amazing gear and consumables that utterly outclassed all that came before. Don't let this game get divided into multiple types of currency, let us freely trade any and every thing that we could possibly value, and let the currency of the game be the method by which we regulate such trades. No need for loss of gear from PvP, that has already been accounted for with ideas like gradual item durability decay, as well as the tendency of items to gradually adapt to the monsters they are used on thus becoming more and more expensive to repair. So there is no absolute need for full loot due to OUT of game reasons. Or at least the reasons I've been able to see by reading over these threads. Perhaps someone knows of a NEW good reason why Open World Full Loot PvP is necessary?

 

i think different i prefer a game where i farm ore or animals for a day to get armors for several days, instead of a game which is pvp unbalanced.
in mortal or ultima you came back after a month and your mats were still good , your armors was still worth wearing. in other games its an endless grind you need to be online all the time. or you wont stand a chance in pvp because people already have better sets out of higher rates.......
hate tose kind of mmos, never enjoyed any mmo except ultima and mortal online for this reason. i mean the big guilds not even fear to wear there best equip. some kind of risk vs reward. for them it is no risk to use there op weapon again and again because they cant loose it and screw up the game

 

I just want the option to take my nemesis's best items he has on him even if they are not the best! just to hurt him a little bit an make him have to sit out for awhile to, buy, find, or make the same stuff he just lost. I should be able to take whatever i feel necessary for the better of myself, or to hurt him for a bit.

I mean if you look back at the medieval days, armor was expensive, most people wore leather, or cloth. Chain and plate or any metal came at a high price. Knights wore plate most of the time and it was expensive. If a peasant was fighting with a pitchfork, and a warrior was downed, he would probably grab his enemies mace. shield, or sword, and his armor if it will protect him better or make him more effecient.

Nowadays Militarily speaking if your in a war and you run out of ammo (weapons get damaged, armor gets damages) you take your enemies weapon/armor to out last him or better yourself, If im carrying an M16, and i see a .50 Cal (sniper rifle) i will take that and polish off the rounds on my enemy. It saves ammo for me and reduces wear on my m16 if not betters my ability to take out the enemy.

those are 2 real life reasons why full loot makes sense (if you choose that option)

In game reason for looting - OME is carrying a 2 handed axe and wearing plate armor, im carrying a sword and wearing chain, i kill off OME two reasons to loot, are to better arm myself (since the 2 handed axe does more damage) and get better armor (OME has plate) that would be better defense and weaponry.

that is how i look at at it and why i fight so hard for it. Ive just benefited myself, and have slightly taken him out for a bit!

So full loot does make sense in a game like this when you push aside economy and optional preferences (PVP and PVE, or Partial loot)

 

I'm glad to see how this thread is straightening up! Lots of people saying lots of interesting things, imo.

I think the best reason to include a loot system with more depth than the ransom system is not from inside nor outside the game; it arises from players' heart, and it's "because some of us want to!". In the same fashion, the reason for not having a complete full loot system (besides the ones pointed out by the devs) is "because some of us don't want to!". We can take differents approaches to the game, but even with it, is the same game for all; as Richard Garriot said "We're making a game to amuse them all, one game to amaze them, one game to gather them all and in the onlineness bind them" (Ok, ok, he never said that, but it would be cool if he did ). That's why compromise and ideas to find something in between is, in my opinion, the best feedback we can provide.

The easiest solution is the one provided by most, give people the option to choose between the two modes, so one side never fights the others. Problem is that generates more segregation, and i personally prefer to get a minimum of that (i think the devs do, too!). I also think this community can do better than just the easiest; since everybody knows that approach already, why not try to achieve some understanding? For example, i loved the loot system related with virtue proposed by Myrcello, because it modify the loot status of the players according to his actions. Of course is not perfect, but i think a "you reap what you sow" approach is the correct one regarding the loot system.

At this point some of you are thinking "oh, no! KuBaTRiZeS is going to write another wall of text proposing a loot system!", but i'm going to spare you this time I'm just going to list what i'd love to get from a loot system and PVP interactions, what options i'd like to be available to me, to support my playstyle.

• If the loot system turns to be of the restrictive kind regarding what you can take (like the ransom system) i'd like gear and contents in inventory to be treated separately.
• At the very least, i want to be able to choose what i take from my victim.
• Looting, killing, and other player interaction related with the virtue system.
• Encumbrance and item size should be taken in consideration regarding looting (both in PVP and PVE loot situations). Characters carrying a couple of plate sets in their inventory plus a handful of halbers is something i don't like to see.
• An insurance mechanic could be interesting; just matter of making it something expensive/hard to get.
• I'd like the feeling of Reds disturbing the community and blues fighting for safety to be represented in this game. Consensual PVP takes out the possiblity of doing direct harm, so maybe a mechanic that changes the hex status and forces players entering it to flag as PVP is interesting (showing smoke over the hex to indicate players zone is under some ruckus).
• Another reasons to fight besides your affiliation to a certain faction would be cool, like resources control, city seizing/defending...

I'd also like to bring up some ideas in the forum who could address most of my points in a successful way. Please, don't look at them only as definitive suggestions, but also as source of ideas that could be applied in other ways.
Time based loot suggestion
Issues about social mechanics
Virtue based loot (this is more or less on topic, but it does no harm to include it here)
Proposals regarding consumables
Player control on resources

Well... It's not a wall... but almost a fence of text . It seems i can't help it

 

If this game was only about the PvP...

Farming gear for days instead of doing the other content is not desirable at all.

 

I go back to this again. They left room for more. Going from 1 to all is greedy. How much is enough 4-5 items? All non equipped items plus 1 equipped?

 

I'm not going to try to pick at the reasoning in the rest of your post, because I believe this is at the crux of the issue. Some of us want to have full loot. FINE! If the reason that all those players wanted it was based 100% on a misunderstood quote attributed to Carol Kane when she was high on meth (thus being a false quote, if you missed that) it would still be VALID under those conditions. SOME players want it, then they should GET it.

HOWEVER,
while some players might want it, other players do NOT, and by the same logic, they shouldn't be forced into it, or to have to jump through hoops to avoid it, there is absolutely NO valid reason why anyone should have to lift a finger to avoid unwanted contact with such a system. It should be default OFF, set on by a click in game settings, and allow those who flag for PvP to experience it as they desire.

All PvP in this game will ALREADY be consensual, that's no longer open for debate, the people actually coding and scripting this little adventure have already spoken on the issue. It's GONNA BE consensual. The only remaining questions are concerning what is involved in consenting, when you will be asked to consent, and what happens when you consent. If I walk out of town and am asked to consent to full loot PvP, I'll stop reading that request after the first one. I'll just click 'refuse' constantly. I suspect a large number of players will react the same way. IF on the other hand, I can enter some PvP with less of an issue, with no chance of item loss, then there will be vastly greater chances of me entering PvP just 'cause. If that holds true for other players like me, if my attitude represents a broader cross-section of the SotA population, then the simple choice of letting people PvP without Mandatory Full Loot will equate to tens of thousands of PvP players appearing and disappearing at the click of a selector. If it's mandatory, we're out, if it's optional, we are in PvP without opting to have Full Loot.

Now, for those who are afraid of being DENIED full loot, take a chill pill. It has also already been stated that YOU WILL HAVE THE OPTION. How it gets implemented is still being debated, but however many people actually want it, you'll be able to enter a copy of the online game wherein everyone present has opted for full-loot-open-world-100%-bring-it-on-hard-core-PvP. If there turn out to be thousands and thousands of players who want it, it will be a rich environment, a throwback to classic UO, boiling over with wonderful PvP possibility. If it turns out there are like, fifty pre-teen boys who all wanted to go gankfest on the noobs, they'll be trapped in their own private hell. It all works out, no matter what.

So quit with the raging and the freaking. The only subjects worthy of debate in PvP are how the actual PvP will work, not who will be forced to what by whom.

 

LOL this guy cracks me up!

 

It was half of it, since it was faced up to

It seems to me your belief prevented you from actually knowing what i was trying to say... I know i tend to write long posts, but it's precisely because i like to explain myself to avoid misunderstandings. No point on that if you answer me based only on my first couple of sentences... If you didn't read it, please do! i enjoyed all the feedback you gave to my threads about skills and combat, and i'd love to hear your opinion about my compilation of thoughts

It's also worth to say I agree with everything you said in your post, i just felt i was being yelled at for something i didn't actually said. I know it's a hot topic and former members are fed up on Full Loot or GTFO. I was just trying to make a statement for commitment, but maybe it didn't came up as i expected... Sometimes good intentions explode right up in your face.

 

Actually, I did read the entire post, I just thought you'd made your most concise statement early on.

Now, to address this: Some players, let's call them party A, want it, and some players, let's call them party B, do not. What to do?

Well, if party A wants it, and asks for it, and party B doesn't feel into it, and says no, then who should get what they want? Should we support A in just taking it, whether B wants it or not? Or should B be able to rebuff A's advances no matter how ardent A becomes on the matter?

I think the answer is actually pretty standard in every country and court of law on the planet.

 

But when I decide to enter the crazy wild world of full loot PvP, none of my victims will be consenting victims... >=-) No one is accepting to get killed and looted. Im surely not! If I enter full loot PvP, im not saying, "you can kill and loot me". Im not a little chicken willingly stretching my neck out over a stone for the butcher. Im a quick, cunning, stealthy mischevious little devil. Im not likely to engage a big tough fighter or a mage. But ill try to play tricks.... Such as walk around with a pack mule and mine, while all my heavily armoured thugs are stealthing alongside with me waiting for an attacker. If theres trapped chests, and more uses for them than there were in UO, ill try to put them babies to good use as well.
But if im caught reaching into the pocket of a noble knight, theres a good chance im going to be sliced in half in one swing by his big mighty two handed sword. Im not consenting to this! I just accept the fact that it CAN happen. making the game way more exciting for me!

 

That's a false Dilemma. Being a conflict of interests, the answer we should be looking for is the one that addresses reasonable points wanted by full loot players from the respectful perspective to no-loot players. What's both reasonable enough and respectful enough for SotA, the Devs will decide. I'll keep making suggestions with that in mind.

In my opinion, facing the issue in the way you exposed it is what made this post 23 pages long while arguing about consensual pvp and full loot. There have been some constructive suggestions, but they're never in the eye of the main argument. It's not matter of picking sides but of reaching a situation of understanding and compromise; that's the point i'm trying to expose in previous posts.

I made the statement that made you snap early on, but to me they're both equally concise. Now i reckon i created the opposite of a smooth introduction, and for that i ask forgiveness, but i don't think that invalidates the rest of ideas and concepts i exposed with compromise and understanding in mind. From my point of view, saying "only no Loot" is as worse and destructive as saying "only full loot".

 

i personally prefer no huge panalty on death. that i can continie playing.
i rather loose my gear and regear in my house or town. sure for pks it should be panalty or you dont feel happy by killing one.
the gear is one thing but if you know he cant play the day, or several days, or have to lvl his skills up again , makes you happy


as i mentioned it woudnt feel right if some people drop everything and others only 1 item
without full loot i coudnt roleplay pvp as i mentined (cant snoob people to know what they have) and tell them that they have to pay a tax for farming near my house or i will harm them seriosly XD

full loot motivate bandits to do pvp , and for sure there are enough blue guilds who will have fun to hunt them down, especially when there is a bounty on head system implemented and blue people know the reds get a panalty and only use the best gear they can loot, if they hunt 1 down.

 

In my opinion, facing the issue in the way you exposed it is what made this post 23 pages long while arguing about consensual pvp and full loot. There have been some constructive suggestions ...

my idea was, in my opinion the best one ... make everyone happy

why not make every single hex 4 separated servers

eu/full loot
eu/pve only

NA/ full loot
NA/ pve only


so everyone get an enjoyable game , depending on how you are flagged eu/NA .... full-loot or not you get thrown in the proper instance so you have a nice ping , and can play the game like you prefer

pvp would remain consensual and pvp full loot players get there freedom and hardcore world .
we could have 4 times more house spots !!!!!

and towns could be a zone where every player can meet playing the game, and join the arena together or gambel or simply chat


Separated economy how and why it is important

materials ores , pickables and animal materials + weapons , get flagged for (pve only) when they are farmed in the /pve only instances

that mean the armor could have 2 separated protection values. for pve only and pvp.
if you craft armors out of mats farmed in full loot instances, the armor get pvp/and pve defencive stats.
if you use flagged materials you only get pve defencive stats
same for weapons they could have 2 offencive stats for pve and pvp separated
potions and food shoudnt be useable in full loot hexes when they are crafted out of pickables which are pve flagged.

a lot of players want the full loot to have freedom to be able to roleplay, to be sure the economy is working , no botters or exploited materials like in ultima online (people farmed save in trammel and brought the materials to felluca, because banks wasnt separated for trammel and felluca even pvp guilds abused that or bought cheeper stuff out of trammel) that made so many people rage quit
destoyed whole economy of felluca and the game, the problem was not that trammel existed but the shared economy of felluca and trammel !!!!!!.


btw if there would be single full loot instances and not everywhere in an open world full loot setting, they would be avoided because all good players would be concentrated there

the fun on full loot is that you dont know what happen, maybe you loot someone with very expencive mats maybe you get looted XD, that you can be killed everywhere that you have to be catious ,that you feel that you are forced to find friends join a ts and a guild to play together, stick together and help each other out especially on transport in the full loot world.

thats why i hate fast traveling, all banks in every town should be separated and in pvp/full loot world, that it just load the new hex when entering it without shoing the world map, that you cant skip instances to fasttravel best would be no map just a compass that you get the lovly feeling of exploring a world instead of just teleporting there.

moongates should be rare

and game would have potential