The Living World - A SotA Goal?

Shroud of the Avatar is advertised as the spiritual successor to the Ultima series. And one of the things that made Ultima unique and stick to the memories of the players was the world that felt alive.

Now I am a bit concered about this for SotA. Let me elaborate. SotA wants to please two distinct type of gamers: Single player fans and MMO fans. I think that both groups expect something different from a game world.

SP fans want to have a world full of NPCs that have a purpose in this world. Cities are places where NPCs live and work. They want to get the feeling that the wildlife is there for a reason and not just to hunt them in order to get crafting materials and advance skills. Monsters should have a purpose and a reason to be in the places you encounter them and your actions should have an impact on the game world - killing all the bandits in the woods should free the woods from the bandits.

MMO fans don't really need many NPCs in a sandbox world. The players craft the items and they sell them themselves. Cities are hubs and places to have player houses in. Wildlife is in the game to get materials and EXP. Monsters are there to get EXP and if you kill the bandits in the woods then they respawn for other players to kill them, too.

I think that those views of how a game world should be are contradictions. They don't work together. Either the sandbox is compromised or the world feels like an MMO hub.

My concerns are that SotA will lean more towards a MMO hub than a living world full of meaningful NPCs etc. Maybe I am wrong but I got this impression by following the forums and the dev hangouts. Most of the discussions revolve around the MMO part of the game. Although there are questions asked about single player features, those are answered rarely. The only answer one gets is that the devs don't want to talk about the story yet. But the single player part consists of so much more than the story only. An example: There is much talk about a complex MMO-economy, but no talk about a single-player-economy. If you look at how the RPG Kingdom Come handles this, there can be so much more to a single-player-economy than just have NPCs pretend that they are working and sell predefined stuff. This would add to the living world and add to the single-player-aspect as much as NPC scedules do.
The impression I get right now is that if I play in single player I will play an MMO alone with a story. This is not how a single player game should feel like.

So I am really unsure if we will get the living world that was such a big part of the old single player Ultimas. And for this living world there is much more needed than NPC schedules. I think the single player world needs to be fundamentally different from the MMO world. Will we get this or will the game focus on the MMO aspects?

 

I think this is the way it will be. Especially if we are to launch by the end of the year.
To make the living world you describe will take much more time and money.
Perhaps New Britannia will evolve into that over time.

But, I've played two other MMO's alone, so it won't be much different this time.
I'll follow the story, skip the group content, and find something else to do until Episode 2.

 

How can ever you call a single player game a "living" world? Isn't that a juxtaposition that sets up your expectations for failure from the beginning?

The story seems like it's beginning to shape up nicely to me. I would put Desolis up as the crown jewel (thus far). We're still in testing mode however, and even it has it's problems. From it's impossibly difficult monsters (for a single player that isn't a power gamer), to it's odd placement of monsters requiring players to fight no matter what - it's hard to tell what is a placeholder and what is part of the design.

Still I'm not sure what you're asking for, exactly. Living worlds have living people, not NPC's. To ask for a single player game to be "living" seems impossible to me. I personally hate all of the single player Skyrim type games for that very reason. They're not living worlds, they're unbelievable sandboxes limited by technology. The whole reason MMO's became so popular (in the beginning) was that players were (and are) the best AI ever invented, they're so good it makes you think you're in a living world.

 

I think that's a really good reminder for a lot of people. I keep getting asked by my friends why I think this game will be amazing and break the mold because they see other games that are "far more polished" and "do similar things" and... etc. I remind them of the launch factor. People dump development time into their games until launch, get their payday, and then go to the next project. SotA is slated to have 5 episodes. VERY early on they committed to continual content updates at a monthly rate even right after episode 1 launches. That means the game will just keep getting better and better. I can only hope this includes how the look/feel of the single player side goes because my wife will be depending on this a lot for us to both enjoy the game equally.

 

Of course "living" is meant as a simulation, a feeling you get from being in this world.
From my experience there are always people in an MMO who are ruining the fun for others. Simply seeing others jumping around instead of walking, dancing on roofs and building towers with chairs breaks my immersion. The world should not be a party zone which is mocking the whole story.
Therefore I prefer NPCs. They give a feeling of how the world is supposed to be. People living in a medieval world, going about their daily lifes and not dacing in dungeons or waiting in line for the boss to respawn.
I am in the game to have an adventure, to experience a story, to see a world that is in peril. But someone jumping through a dungeon and dancing on corpses does not reflect that all.

 

That's understandable. I have often felt the same way in other games.

I don't personally feel that way in this game however. I think the story of New Britannia lends itself well to cover that ground. If the story were "this is medieval England" then no, that wouldn't fly. If the story were, this is another world that has nothing to do with Earth, that also would be a problem. But smartly, the story of SOTA is one where WE travel through the computer to visit another world that is connected to our own. This allows for incredible freedom in roleplaying, and makes almost anything a form of roleplaying that does not break my immerssion and in fact may enhance it. I consider this story line to be a great gift from RG.

That doesn't mean that when I see a tower made out of dressers and ankh's my sense of comfort isn't disturbed, but it does mean that I can simply write it off as immature, unsophisticated forms of expression. In the context above we're all still roleplaying though. The story remains 100% in tact through this process too. The NPC's think Avatars are weird, that they're trouble, that they are powerful - and they're right.

I'm very much enjoying this.

 

The unfortunate part of MMO's is that players generally suck at making good content. They think they do well and that it is great that we have yet another quest for the ring....but that sucks to be honest. That's not to say all is like this, but the majority is.

I would rather experience the developers world, that is laid out with care and precision.

Lord Darkmoon brings up some pretty good points, the sad thing is in my opinion some of us are no longer the target audience.

 

Looking back at the Kickstarter campaign I get the feeling that at first SotA was meant as SP game that you could play online.
By this I mean: For example playing Risen 3 or Skyrim but having the option to bring in friends and even strangers if you want and also have a home in the world and contribute the the economy etc.

Now I get the feeling that SotA is a MMO that you can also play alone. So you basically play an MMO but you can turn off seeing other players.

For me those are two fundamentally different game designs leading to two fundamentally different games.

 

MMO talk was a few months after the kickstarter.

 

I agree with Darkmoon. The Selective Multiplayer game we kickstarted seems to have turned into an MMO with the option to play single player. Single player features are not given even close to the same importance.

For instance, we've been told that sleeping/time advancement is not on the agenda for single-player. I consider this an ESSENTIAL feature for a SP game that has npc schedules and a day-night cycle. Not something that would be nice to have. Absolutely essential. But, because you can't have sleeping/time advancement in an mmo, it's been shelved for Episode 1.

Also, that abomination of the chat box. Why can't we have somthing that doesn't look like a yahoo messenger or some other chat program. I've played lots of single player rpgs. Several of them required me to type responses (Ultima 6 being the most notable example). It never felt like internet messenging.

When these things are brought up they rarely get much attention and when they do, it feels like it's waived away as "unimportant." There is a lot of talk about: "Wait, that content will come last." But will we get to test it? Give feedback? Let it grow based on how the SP community receives it? The answer to theses questions in the past has pretty much been: "No, we can't get metrics for offline play."

How about we set aside some time to test SP and the devs can set it up so that it DOES send back metrics. Because SP fans deserve the same chance to assess the progress of their chosen playstyle and help it change and grow in the same way the MMO side is being tested and changed.

 

There are a few features that I think are still scheduled that I think will help the world feel more like a living world in SP:
(1) NPC schedules, actually seeing them go about their days will likely help the world feel much more "alive"
(2) City Sieges. I'm not clear on exactly how these are supposed to work, but it's something they've talked about since the beginning and I'm hoping it will contribute to feeling like there are actual world events happening.
I am only planning on playing MP, but I am really hoping for features like these to help make the world more dynamic even in MP.

With regards to things like respawning bandits, I think a lot of that sort of stuff depends a lot on how they set up the quests, storyline, and the difference between single player offline and the multiplayer version. In the simplest case, where there are quests like "These bandits have been attacking the city, go deal with them", I hope in the single player version once they are dealt with they are dealt with for good, even if they respawn in the multiplayer version.

 

This is a question of attitude and firm convictions Shroud is a kind of jack of all trades and therefore the community is a melting pot of very different tastes and notions. I like and prefer the solo playing as in Ultima 7 or Utlima Underworld (my all time favourites) but I also know the MMOs. I led a Guild Wars guild for five years and had have much fun. But to keep a guild alive is very time consuming. Everything had its time and for me my MMO time is over. Unfortunately - as already stated by Darkmoon, Rune and Docdoom - Shroud seems to have turned into a MMO with a story as an accessory. Maybe I'm wrong but for me the focus has changed since the kickstarter campaign from a story driven game with the opportunity to play with some friends or other people to an entire MMO sandbox game with the opportunity to follow a story. This is good for the MMO fans and not so good for the single player and story fans. I know there is not enough money two make two games. It is a question of balance how Shroud will satisfy the different camps at release. At the moment I think the the pendulum swings more in the direction to satisfy the MMO camp.

This was one of my most hated things during my active MMO time.

But why to play a MMO alone? The reason for playing a MMO is to interact with other people

 

Indeed. And that's why I no longer play MMOs. I tried it a couple of times, and it wasn't for me.
I don't want Shroud to be that way.

 

A living World = Morrowind. To level, you had to sleep. Benefits from food and drink. towns where people acted differently from day to night. Shops were locked, people in their beds, containers to capture souls, arrows and magic that had to be aimed, guards on watch etc. A single player game that other SP games are judged against for me.

An MMORPG is a a social animal. Making an MMORPG that can be soloed or even duoed through to me is not really an MMORPG. My guild and the POT I live in are VERY small but I join into others TS or Mumble and engage with them, adventure with them as much as possible. The SP component is sifted into the MMORPG aspect, not the other way around. Your actions in the SP are taken with you into the MMORPG. The MMORPG is where you kill the same creatures, go to mine the same nodes, craft the same things and put the finishing touches on your character, your house and your guilds and towns.

In Morrowind you could own property, become friendly with different factions, craft, enchant, joins guilds, commit crimes, become a Lycanthrope or Vampire. What you did and who you were mattered in that game. I doubt the SP will be much like this but this is where the MMORPG comes in. Your actions, how you treat other players, how much you help or hinder others defines how you are perceived over time. Rep is king here. One day your party is filled with people of your own guild. People you've come to trust and know well. The next day everyone in your group are from different guilds, each with their own style of playing. You are with them because everyone there needs to do something specific and others were not available. If you have a bad rep however, it is likely you may find yourself without this second option and in many cases, without the first besides. You rejoice in the accomplishments of your peers and are free to help up those who have fallen on hard times. The MMO is redundant, repetitive and mind-numbingly boring by itself in almost every case. It is finite, period. Its the people that keep it alive over time and if you engage in the RPG aspect of it, more fun still.

“Almost dead yesterday, maybe dead tomorrow, but alive, gloriously alive, today.”-Matrim Cauthon

 

I try to be positive about the game and its direction whenever possible, but I do agree with the majority of the sentiments here.

It's no secret that the devs have changed their tune from "its not an MMO" to "its both an MMO and a single player game!". I want this to be possible, but the single player, living world feeling is getting harder to find.

The ultima-ness of the world is still there, intact, with the useability of items and such. It still feels like ultima, which is a big plus. But in all honesty it feels like ultima online, not a classic single player ultima.

Issues for me in this area include:

• NPCs and towns feel kind of lifeless. This is because of a few reasons... NPC schedules will help, of course. But seeing an identical zombie vendor clone in the front yard of every other house is offputting. NPC dialogue is... lacking. I'm not sure if this is because Ultimas traditionally use Old English (Thee, thy, thou) or other reasons, but the dialogue itself lacks soul. This issue is then compounded by having to chat with NPCs in an instant messenger window tab.

• Encounters with creatures feel exactly like every MMO i have played since Everquest. I look at a wolf, see the color of its name, immediately know if its too strong for me. I run away, and once I exit the zone of influence the wolf turns around and runs back to its house. I can't comment on the combat at this point, cause i haven't tried it with the new updates.

• Sleep. We can't sleep!

• Thievery. One of the hallmarks of ultima was that any shop, in any town, had merchandise out in the open. Behind glass cabinets, on shelves, etc. I would spend hours at a time trying to figure out how to nab that glowing blue chest armor without getting spotted! An RPG without stealing isn't really an RPG. Well, at the very least... it isn't an Ultimate one.

I'm not going to say that I don't still have hope, because I do! Mostly. But 2 of the 4 above items have been flat out denied by the devs, at least for Episode 1. (Which removes a lot of hope for future episodes, because they are all supposed to be built off of the same game system, and released yearly.) And the other 2 don't look like they will be changing any time soon either.

But I continue to hope, anyway.

 

I'm in agreement with many of the comments here. As a priority create a living breathing, believable world with an awesome story and lore woven into it and then allow us to explore that with our friends - that's what I'd like to see

The biggest issue I'm having is the 'junk yards' springing up in the story towns, like stacks of items, flashy flags etc. There's no real sense of an interesting RPG world like there is in other RPGs like Witcher series, Divinity Original Sin, Pillers of Eternity etc.

All the NPC buildings feel sparsely decorated and bleak, probably because all the resources have been allocated to player housing (of which I am an owner, with a Knights pledge by the way). I really hope that the NPC homes and buildings start to come alive with decorations, a bit of realistic clutter and we start seeing some unique looking and interesting NPC 3D models.

I really believe that Portalarium need to make a concerted push to get these single player (or friends play together) features up to scratch. I think there needs to be a major investment in games systems that contribute to telling the story or giving the NPC world a sense of life (like decent NPC schedules).

There's still time! Come on Portalarium, you can do it!

 

For me SOTA was/is about: A living world (like Ultima 7), great NPC characters (like Ultima 7) and a great storyline (like Ultima 7).
The idea of playing with friends is also interesting, but secondary.

Look at how well Divinity: Original Sin sold and their kickstarter for a sequel has already raised over $1million.

 

I like many of the multiplayer features in SOTA, but was drawn here for the lore plus story.

In a perfect world I would have seen them put in more features that help tell the story like good voice acting for key characters and character portraits etc.

I really feel like the towns in SOTA feel empty and lifeless :-(

 

Just want to weigh in with my support for more emphasis on single player features.