Why is making and eating food more complex than casting magic spells?

I'd start by making a light spell require a reagent. But yes, I'd love to see greater complexity beyond just that.

In terms of summoning, I think demons and extra-planar creatures should not just "show up" and kill stuff. They're supposed to be a little smarter than that. I'd actually like it if a demon, for example, showed up and said something like "You dare summon me mortal?! I have been disturbed before by more powerful spell casters than you, and that did not end well for them." Depending on the reagents used and the SKILL of the player to effectively control the demon, the act of summoning a demon might be something they regret ever trying.

 

I think it is quite funny that some devs basically believe that in general players are not that smart and therefore having regeants be required for casting spells would be too confusing. Yet here is cooking which is wonderfully deep and complex. The argument of differing philosophies still rages on within Portalarium it seems. Cooking is right on track, magic on the other hand needs a course change.

 

Balancing this game is going to be complex regardless. That's the nature of these things. It's not a reason not to try.

 

I always secretly hope that behind your keyboard sits the real Robert De Niro saying Robert De Niro one liners. "Magic stinks...little bit."

 

Summoning is another such thing. It could be so deep and interesting. Why not having to go to some unholy place where you need some reagents, materials and spells to summon a demon in a ritual. You could then bind it to some item for example a special diamond. The better the reagents and materials are that you use and the more of them you use in the ritual, the more often you could summon the demon from the gem before it shatters.
And maybe the ritual may even backfire and the demon would try to kill you if you do not use the proper materials or too few of them or if you are not powerful enough.
Right now, you summon the demon, period. This is also a compromise we obviously have to accept to make (PvP) combat faster and more action-oriented. But we have to sacrifice a deep and complex system and maybe even some story as well as atmosphere for it.

 

There's no reason we have to do that...we ARE doing that. This is an RPG so I don't understand why we do anything that negatively impacts roleplaying.

 

Good discussion.

Basics:
Food had NO GOOD PURPOSE in most RPG's, I proposed this to give it interest and relevance.
Magic, has lots of other ways it is interesting and relevant.
We are looking into how Magic, or at least alchemy, potions, wands and staffs can become more interesting and more balanced.

LB

 

I love the nutrition system for that too. It's innovative and it's very supportive of roleplaying. It should have a positive impact on the economy. It's really a cool system!

I'm a pure mage that wants to put all my time and energy into being a mage and I don't find the current thoughts on magic to be remotely interesting. It seems like it's all damage and cool downs with no reagents needed. So I'm looking forward to seeing that evolve over time.

I hope magical combat gets the same love.

Thanks for posting!

 

Yes, that means that you should have learned that being condescending isn't that productive...

Then maybe you should consider that you are not the only recipient of said post and that not all in it was aimed for your imformation, but also for general consumption. It was meant to give background as to why I reached the opinion I then related. If everyone who knows stuff never mention the basics, then the learning curve becomes steeper.
And if you know their reasoning why magic is so easy then some sort compromise solution like mine is the only way that you'd get the complexity you'd love to have.

Simple. Lumination, time and fizzle chance. Having to recast over and over, while just as effective is tedious.

yes, and? Are you of the impression that they are making things more difficult, not less difficult for magic during the alphas? I'm not.

 

I value your feedback and opinion. I wasn't trying to be condescending. I'm sorry for the confusion.

Actually this is a roleplaying game and so I'm not sure why there has to be a compromise that favors power gamers. That seems like we're catering to people that could care less about the main focus of the game - roleplaying.

Regardless of anything else, this is a roleplaying game. It's not an FPS, it's not a Real Time Strategy, it's a Roleplaying game. The rest of the "vision" of this game may be confusing and communicated poorly, but that much I understand. Shroud of the Avatar is a Roleplaying game.

So naked mages that can cast any spell in the world without reagents and still have a competitive casting and fizzle time doesn't bother you? How about needing to be a hybrid fighter mage to compete in pvp?

Also, if the penalty for casting a spell without reagents is going to be so horrible that people won't want to do it...why are we doing it again? It makes no sense. We're making mechanics for people that are min/maxing the system. They're going to do that regardless of what we do so can't we just make the game good for roleplaying first and worry about making it easier to min/max later?

 

Actually I think that the compromise that basic effect magic would be easy but high effect magic would be complex would favor roleplayers and questers much more than it would power gamers.

Well it would depend on attractiveness....
And no it would not bother me, they will play their type of game regardless.
But me, as long as I know that if I do my reasearch and prep I could be "better" they wouldn't bother me at all. I like the RP parts even when they are less effective. I don't do exploits for profit.

Why if you are not a min-maxer or a power gamer would you want to be as effective as one in pvp?
They will beat you regardless because they are dedicated to min-maxing the pvp, while you are spending time roleplaying. They are way out of our league before we even start the game.

Also, if the penalty for casting a spell without reagents is going to be so horrible that people won't want to do it...why are we doing it again? It makes no sense. [/quote]That was a very lame strawman.
How about giving me (and the team) the doubt that you demand from me?

I didn't say horrible I said tedious - don't you think that the naked mage with no reagents should compensate by having to repeatedly recast? Over the almost naked mage with prepared reagents?


How about needing to be a hybrid fighter mage to compete in pvp?[/quote]Yes, how about it? I'll bet that won't be the best min-max build on higher skill levels, its usually specialization that wins min-max pvp.

Uhm, you are seriously underestimating the effort to min-max. And they are players and payers to. I want them to have fun as well as me and you.

 

Only if the game design allows it. If the game design is made to reward roleplaying...I doubt anyone will be out of my league.

It's not a strawman. It's a reality. The argument that people make about allowing casting without reagents is that it's going to be so severe that no one would want to do it anyway. To that I say, what's the point then? Chris (a developer) has made this point at least three times publicly over the last year. I ask the same question every time I hear the this answer and I've never gotten a satisfactory reason.

I think that if you give people a way to MIN (being naked with spells) they will use it to MIN and be effective at whatever that allows them to be effective at doing. Historically that's meant that they could impact PVP and Roleplaying in a number of negative ways. But if you can't cast spells without reagents, well now there's a real cost associated with running around naked. That's one of my points.

Really? You think a powerful fighter that doesn't need reagents to cast spells won't throw a few out FOR FREE during combat? What's the risk to the fighter again?

I want all players to have fun, but not at the expense of roleplaying. It's a roleplaying game. It's not a "have fun at the expense of roleplaying game".

 

I expect a lot of complexities are missing due to the fact it's still a pre-alpha...

 

I'd like to see wands and staffs have their charges worked like bows are done. If you charge it with the reagents it can auto cast without the focus cost (or with a very minimal one). It's another reward for preparing for combat and not just running in blindly. I personally won't use a staff/wand because it pulls from my focus and I cannot sacrifice my focus for such a minimal amount of damage/healing as a wand or staff would provide.

 

What's an example of something you think we'll see by beta that does not exist now?

 

gotta go - I'll respond more tomorrow.
=)

Uhm, powergamers were the original roleplayers - have you ever met or read about Gygax et friends?

It was a strawman, you took my position which said "tedious" and replaced it with "so horrible one wouldn't do it". Whether my position was true or false does not factor in.

Some do, but I didn't, check my original reply. I said I wanted it to be click-and-point easy.

Oh, I could come up with a couple of reasons which you'd reject because your position is so loaded.
First and simplest being - what happens when you run out? Shouldn't I be able to cast since my combat-card pops up, should all my carefully prepped deck be useless since one out of ten reagents ran out?
Do I need to prep 10s of decks just in the case I ran out of X resource?

Do you think that the team will not balance out such exploits? I do.

Have you tried min-maxing, do you know how that woks? Skill diverisity isn't really a min-max thing.
Now me, I'd love to see a free skill system where you are not required to be a specific class just because some people nag about it.
Me I'd love to see a system where what you thought was a powerful fighter suddenly puts a decent fireball upp your behind - that would be amazing, not troubling. That means that that person put time, effort and dedication into it. I'd respect that.

Please tell me, how could my compromise system in any shape or form be considered "not fun for roleplaying". It would give you your whole complex magix tree, but it would still make magic fun for the casual player not having time to fiddle with all the reagents and alchemy due to a toddler keeping them away from the game at random hours, or work. (The average age of a player in this game is quite high).

You do realise that you are the one that wants to limit the mage who lost everything to bandits in the wood and is now running around naked, so you are the one trying to limit the system - not me.

 

I'm just going to agree to disagree with everything you just said. Have a good day.

 

Nutrition system, for example. And you said you love it.

We will see more systems come online when Portalarium feel that are right to be presented.

 

I don't mind waiting...but I'm still waiting for Santa Claus to show up. It's been a long time.

You do see the fatal flaw in just "assuming" they're working on "other systems" right? The whole reason to give them feedback now is so they KNOW what systems we'd like to see. Otherwise, you end up with a system you didn't assume they'd ever make....like the way magic works right now.

 

The magic system with skills could stay with some modifications, in order to add some depth.

1. Spells have to be obtained. Standard spells could be bought, more powerful ones would have to be found in dangerous places or be teached by powerful mages.
2. The spells would have to be written down in a spellbook. If you do not have the spell, the skill in the skilltree is not available (greyed out) and you cannot spend skillpoints on it.
3. Spells need reagents that have to be bought or found. Maybe you even need to combine some reagents with alchemy for extremely powerful spells.
4. You spend skillpoints on the skills of the spells that you have collected in your spellbook. The more skillpoints you spend on a spell, the more powerful it becomes and the less reagents it needs.
5. You have to prepare spells in advance, by using the required reagents. Also the skill and how much points you spent on it could determine how often the spell can be prepared.
6. In combat you can cast prepared spells the way you cast them now. If all prepared spells are used up, you cannot cast anymore and have to prepare new spells.

This way the magic system would become more complex and deeper and also more tactical as you have to think what spells to prepare and how many of them, dependent on the reagents you have and how many reagents you have.