Functioning Prisons?

Bayien started a thread here

https://shroudoftheavatar.com/forum...-jails-and-ways-to-get-away-with-crimes.1232/

and suggested imprisonment as part of the justice system in SotA and that got me thinking. How would imprisonment actually work if we had it?

I'm starting a new thread on the subject mainly because the subject of the original thread is focused on other aspects of behavior like how to handle identifying criminals. I'd like to break up the discussion into smaller, more focused chunks.

The main problem with prisons in-game is that no one wants to watch their character sit there serving time. Most games handle this by either not having them altogether or allowing you to fast forward until your release. Fast forwarding is not an option for multiplayer so if you're going to have inprisonment then you need to have something to do. I'll try to make this an easy read and keep it summed up as much as possible.

* Bounty or "Debt to Society" is accumulated each time a crime is witnessed by an NPC (assuming the witness survives to report the crime). If a PC witnesses a crime they have X amount of time to report it to the local guard. Bounty could be localized or global.. I personally prefer local. This assumes all towns have a territory.. thus crimes committed outside legal juristiction wouldn't count.

This Bounty applies only towards the world legal system and not intended to replace or inhibit "player justice" or independantly placed bounties by players or NPCs (quests) etc.

Note there is a bounty hunting discussion going on here...

https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/?topic=bounty-hunter-system

* Wanted Alive! Not Dead! I have to stress this point since the NPCs of the world know that avatars don't stay dead. Therefore they aren't likely to accept a simple death as punishment for known avatars. Guards my assign bounty hunter quests to those who do not have a bounty themselves. Only those who recieve such a quest can recieve the bounty. Naturally multiple players can get the same bounty quest.

* Capture: Either the player with a bounty can allow themselves to be arrested by the guard.. or they fight. Losing either to a guard or player with the bounty quest means they are revived in prison. All items and gold in their inventory are confiscated. This is basically an instant teleport to prison.

Now this is where it gets interesting. Players will have several options.

* Escape: Any escape attempt will increase your bounty. Success means you're free but it should be extremely difficult to get your equipment back. Failure means death and you're still in prison.

* Gladiator: Pay off your bounty by winning matches either PvE or PvP in an arena. Healing is free between matches. Gain fame and glory.

* Hard Labor: Pay off your bounty by working in the mines. Harvest or process ores. There may be a few surprises to be found (ie rare minerals hard to find anywhere else).

* Crafts: Smith weapons and armors for the local guards. Produce healing or other supplies etc..

* Corruption: Find ways to smuggle contraband in and out of prisons.. either to facilitate escapes or aquiring rare minerals from the prison mines etc.

You get the gist of it. Prison can provide any number of skill building activities to keep players occupied.

* Release: Your bounty has been worked off. Your record is cleaned. You get your items back (or most of them) though perhaps your gold has been confiscated? and you're free to go. Your debt to society is paid.

With a functioning prison your crimes could hang over your head for quite awhile until you've paid your dues. Obviously the time your spend paying off your crimes needs to be properly balanced.

Feedback?

 

Of course no one wants to sit there watching there character break rocks for no reason THAT'S THE POINT. If your trying to discourage someone from doing something then the penalty for doing it cant be a reward. After all isn't the PK crowd asking for realism (for example its not really FUN to spend ages building an affinity with weapons and armor and then having them stolen or broken or watching someone cut up your corpse)?

 

My opinions on PKing a side (plus the fact it is not going to be in the game AFAIK), if the desire is to go the route of literally PUNISHING players then why not just do away with the ceremony and cancel their accounts for them.

Because if you're going to enforce mining ore or sitting in a room for 20 hours then that is what they are going to do so why waste the time developing some elaborate system that no one is actually going to like participating in and is only there as a punishment.

I just don't think this is the route to go.

 

@Ashlynn, for those who elect to go open PvP, Richard Garriott has stated that players will have the opportunity to take an evil role, so I think that has to include the ability to be a murderer.

If one does become a murderer, it will be in accordance with accepted game rules, so speaking of cancelling someone's account for playing the game as designed is foolish. Richard Garriott came to that conclusion himself in UO when he spoke of almost banning a persistent bank thief, and decided he can't really punish a person for playing a game as it was designed.

If you don't want to participate in PvP, don't participate in PvP. Allow those of us who do participate to handle the transgressors. That is the whole idea behind player justice, and Richard has also indicated that is how he wants it to be handled, so as to better pursue the idea of the Virtues in the game.

Kill murderers early. Kill them often. Take all their stuff. Simple, direct, and requires no elaborate system.

 

If the idea was strictly to punish then there's be no reason to give them anything interesting to do. The idea isn't meant to punish the player for playing the game as designed but rather it's intended as an interesting consequence and means to eliminate one's standing as a criminal.

Why do you think I listed options? I'd wager most PKers would go for PvP matches in the arena. Crafters would want to craft and so on. All the options are meant to give people things to do where they can gain experience and work on their skills.

Also 20 hours is a bit much. It's not so elaborate either. You just design the prison area like you would anywhere else and make a quest out of it. Work, time = reduced debt.

 

Prisons would require an afk-auto-logout, and probably bot detection, otherwise, people with a debt to pay will just login before work/school, and come home free of the penalties of the previous evenings PKing.

I'm quite for it though. Not so sure on the escape idea, but certainly "putting your skills to use" for the town where you're caught / surrender seems good. Complete some work orders for the NPC jailmen, and get your "in-prison" time reduced. I'd think a 3hr prison time cap should be fine. Guessing it could be brought down to 1hr-1hr30 if you're crafting/arena fighting/whatever other activities they decide.

May an "escape kit" could be crafted but requires materials from outside the jail - i.e. you need visitors to smuggle in goods to help you escape! Will your friends risk prison themselves to see you escape? OK I'm going for this escape option a bit more now I think about it!

 

@OP [Original Poster, for those who don't know what 'OP' is]
Yes!!! I think this is great. That's why I started bringing up elaborate Justice systems from the beginning.

https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/?topic=sota-dev-hangout-4-2-13

https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/?topic=npcs-behavior

It is my hope that only EXPLOITERS of either game or players, aka 'griefers', get banned from the game. I would hope that even they would get a STERN warning and probation, and a chance to 'straighten up', with being banned as a third strike, last resort event. It is a much better, and more imaginative route to take -- in my humble opinion -- for the writers to create Justice options such as we have mentioned, along with many wonderful creations others will come up with on their own. This would keep more players from losing their accounts, plus keep the PKers 'out of the hair' of their intended victims for a time, plus give the 'victims' some closure. It might be a creative point of play that could even help the 'criminal' see things from a different perspective, who knows?

That having been said, I know that for the most part, it looks like PKers will not even 'see' the non-PvP players at all, nor visa-versa. Personally, I think they should be seen, and possibly encountered, if a non-PvPer took a certain route outside of 'known' safety in New Britannia. If they became a 'victim' after that point, that's when my idea of the aforementioned Justice system should kick into effect. I think it sounds fun. The 'victim' could be reimbursed in a court trial and etc...

 

I am for prisons, but - as mentioned - this can be hard to implement. If you "allow" people to be bad then forcing them to sit and lose game-time for doing it is not right. It really just punishes people for a certain playstyle that is allowed and in character for the game.

In one of the NWN server I played on, there were 2 factions at war. Generals on either side had a item which would allow them to create a portal to send the opposing faction member into a jailed area.

Worth mentioning: <blockquote>You could not force them into the portal and they had to enter willingly. Therefore it was a choice for the person to be jailed. Otherwise they could just run away or attack you.

You could get yourself out. There was a secret exit and a door to be picked which you need the proper skill to find and use.</blockquote>

This lead to some nice RP where the you needed player guards to ensure the prisoner didn't escape (or you knew they escaped), and the opposing force could attack or try to sneak in to free them. This could be a lot of fun for many people, but if you didn't have the skills to free yourself (or had no guard to argue with) it was very dull for the prisoner since rescue could take hours if it ever did happen.

I think a system like this for PKers and Anti-PKers to utilize that provides some level of fun for both sides would be a great idea. But for actually punishing people this would only work if these in-game actions were not allowed, and really its best just to remove the feature (PVP/PK/Stealing) because punishing players is really no different than banning them (after all its a game), which really just leads to lost revenue or player base.

 

I don't want anyone to think of a prison in-game as a punishment for the player. As Umbrae points out you shouldn't punish anyone for playing within the rules of the game.

The goal here isn't to punish the player but give the player an interesting route to take towards redemption in the eyes on the world. That's why we give them something to do instead of just staring at a wall of a prison cell. Perhaps even given them incentive to go prison.. like mining a rare mineral that's hard to find anywhere else that can be smuggled out.

The world sees prison as punishment for the character.. but the player behind that character should find it a fun and interesting experience. That is what I'm aiming for.

There should also be other options for those who don't want to go this route. What I might call "frontier justice" being what your traditional anti-PK might prefer should also be viable.

 

@fireangel I'd like to see griefers be banished (temporarily) to the lowest level of the smelliest dungeon for a few days as a slime (aka jwilson) *grins evilly* I believe this would serve a pretty good lesson in humility, and would be quite satisfying to the victim, and a bit less harsh than an all out account ban.

On the law system, I would love to see this. Moments of my most enjoyment were as the Captain of the guard at Trinsic where doing my bit in the judiciary process was great fun (even when getting ganked by an army wanting to free our prisoners lol) I believe such a system should be part game mechanic, and part democratically (or via high level backer) control. That way it would allow for fair, and unfair systems alike. (persistent griefers who are just doing it to annoy rather than to participate should be dealt with outwith the game's justice system if it goes too far though)

Just my 0.75gp

Darg.

 

Prisoner Online !! Awesome idea !!

Take 30 minutes setting up my avatar and then just watching him sit in a prison , I can't wait !!!

 

If you don't mind please read the idea before making assumptions.

 

Just a joke I understand what your trying to suggest.

 

@Dargalin, in a game where PvP is entirely by consent, what do you consider 'griefing' that would merit such a punishment?

 

@Gunda Din Sorry.. with the varied responses it's sometimes hard to read intent of posts.

 

***DUNGEONS NOT JAIL***

I'm only for prisons if there is elaborate escape possibilities. Then somebody can earn the title of Prison Escapee.

However instead of prisons throw them into DUNGEONS!!! That's what they're for. Let them be stripped from their equipment and have to sneak around and bust up the guards and get their stuff back. Then they can fight their way out of the dugeon or hang out and make buddies there.

However they need to locate some kind of key to open the gate of the dungeon to get out completely to the overland map again. Also they should have the opportunity to get some good loot in the process.

*************
This solves the problem of realism for jailing criminals. It also doesn't ruin their gameplay by being stuck in a cell. Also it may not be a place you want to go to (who really wants to be thrown in a dungeon?). However if you do get caught for your crime being thrown in a dungeon might be an exciting experience for a PK. Also I think that if they go this route they should get a tattoo or something permanent for being a prisoner.

Either way have a trial, and justice is served by throwing them into a dungeon. Then they can still have fun getting out of it. It's better than waiting around in a cell or waiting to turn blue again. It also makes them want to avoid law enforcement or be thrown in jail. Justice is a virtue so this should be in game.
**********************

 

In this case we're talking semantics and if you read the entire suggestion I believe you'll find escape attempts were in fact included.

 

TLDR, and I?m only for prisons if there is elaborate escape possibilities. Then somebody can earn the title of Prison Escapee.

 

Maybe some public humiliation would help? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9AnEe28cuIY

 

I had imagines of being pelted with tomatoes while sitting in the stocks but the real question is would that be fun for the player who's character is being punished. All they can really do is sit there and watch. So I'm inclined to think it wouldn't be fun.