My Experiences on Siege: UO - PvP/Risk/Reward (thoughts after markeedragons roundtable)

(First of all, sorry for my being long winded here. But I'm very passionate about this game and what else is there to do but talk about it right now? At first I started writing this in the Wish list forum but then I realized it just turned into me recounting my good times in UO)

Hello, I know that I am new to the forums and I understand a lot of these things will have already been talked about. I've been overseas and found SotA just recently. (Long time Ultima addict, youtubed it the other day to reminisce and stumbled upon Spoony's episodes. Which eventually led me to Spoony's interview with RG and I was all "WHAT??".)

I've been trying to catch up by reading the looong threads here, and by watching Markee Dragon's roundtable discussions. I think I'm on #7 now. I've been thinking a lot about Lord British's comments about PVP and the want to find a way to lure the more timid players into the dangerous situations. The player that just wants to be a tavern owner or safe explorer who may be missing out on many experiences.

When I joined the Ultima Online world, it was shortly before Trammel was introduced. As a newbie in Felucca I was very timid about PK's. It was very annoying to be with new friends, who were trying to show me around, having fun and then just getting ganked by 6 naked mages blasting E-bolt. I also wanted a house, so Trammel was enticing to me. But when it opened up, I enjoyed my new log cabin and complete safety and lack of immersion for all of about 2 months. I found myself on Siege Perilous after reading about the rules there.

Now I was in military barracks at the time and we had a really bad internet provider with only dial up. Bad dial up. So I had a very hard time in PVP. But I eventually learned to enjoy it. The reward of gameplay with everything being harder, everything meaning more, and the community there really made it worth the extra danger and struggles and set backs.

One point I'd like to make is that, on average, the player killers were more mature there. And their motives were somewhat different. PVP'ers who came to Siege, were making the decision to go to a "Veteran Server" where they couldn't prey on easy targets. While there was some "red vs. blue" it was much less pronounced on Siege and battles usually had more to do with politics or reputation or land disputes and both sides would have a mix of red and blue. As you found your niche and gained some notoriety based on who you ran with, you found random reds who don't know you would leave you alone, or attempt to role play with you. And blue "good" players would not attack a red player on sight if they had no reason. Especially if there were guilds involved because you might be causing a political problem for your guild.

I moved out to a small open house spot near Cove and after running into members from the player town of House Lynn'Dannae a few times I began to learn I'd found my new friends. Kira Lynn'Dannae, the High Lady was very nice, but sometimes I would run into the evil (and red) drow who was very involved in town defense. She would size me up, be rude and distant. But never killed me for no reason just to take my stuff and taunt me. Eventually I joined the House Lynn'Dannae and those are the best times I've ever had in an MMO. Battling the outcast orcs to the south (players who had been outcast from Shadowclan for whatever reason), but also making treaties to somewhat live in peace out of necessity. There were two anti-social PK's that lived to the north that loved to come gank us with "less than legal means" at times. Dang those guys were fast. But it was fun. I set up a supply house in town with decent gear easy to grab for the whole guild. So we could jump right back into battle if we died while defending. I often did due to my slow speed connection but I could get back into battle and assist my guildmates who were on faster connections much quicker by planning ahead and setting up that supply house. I learned not to care so much about dying to a PK, because it was fun.

Sometimes when I was bored and none of my friends were on. I would travel out to the Shadowclan orc fort by myself, knowing I was eventually going to die to their numbers. But I was giving them something to do and they were giving me something to do. They didn't ride horses, to role play orcs and make it more realistic... knowing it made them much weaker in PVP. And I would go there alone knowing I would have a disadvantage against there numbers. I would take down 1 or 2 or 3 (after some fun words with the grunting orcs) with the advantage of my horse, and only loot their weapon. When they finally took me down, they'd only loot my regeants (to neutralize me) and food and cut up my horse (because orcs would do that). There was a reason for it all... Roleplay and fun. They'd leave me some gate regeants usually and I'd be on my merry way and not mess with them again for a few days.

It was just so much more rewarding than the red vs. blue gank fest with all the trash talk that meant nothing. And it was a lot of fun.

But I had to get over my fear of losing stuff, or feeling bad because I was bested by someone who might be a better player than me, or have more game skills, or even a cheat hack.

Eventually I found more enjoyment than have had in a game before or since. But I had to get out there and be a part of it.

There were times when it was frustrating, yes. I'd get ganked and lose a lot of stuff, call for my guild and allies to try to get revenge and track the guy down. Sometimes we were successful and sometimes not.

A lot of times when I was still on dial up I'd just think of my character as a better opponent for other players than the NPC's. Even if I died I'm providing fun and immersion for those other players.

And so when Richard Garriott mentioned that in Markee's round table it really struck a cord with me. It's not so much up to him and the devs to figure out a way to lure players into the full open world dangerous content beyond making the mechanics and rewards/punishments most conducive for everyone. I think it comes down to the players and how they view the game. How they think about their character, for "carebears", PK's and Anti-pk's alike.

Is it really so bad to die to "The Dread Captain Awesome" and lose some stuff if it prompts you to seek out companions and work together? Or possibly to find a way to negotiate with him? Amassing the most loot and the biggest house and all that is fun and rewarding but there will always be someone who has more or is better than you. I can still google "The White Council" or "LDH" and find references to my character's name even though its been years. But there's no bank account total next to it. Its memories of the things myself and those around me did. The most reward I found is in the stories that emerge from social interactions and conflicts. And I'll never regret the day I put down that bard/tamer in Trammel and joined the world of Siege Perilous.

 

I'm happy you found your joy.
Your joy is not mine. I've tried it, and I do not find it appealing in the least.

We are different.

This is neither good nor bad, it simply is. I hope that Shroud of the Avatar has bits of joy for both of us.

 

There are more gameplay options (player driven content) when the game gives us tools instead of restrictions.

Games that restrict play styles by placing limitations on players are forced to provide more and more content to maintain interest. This leads to the gear grind treadmill we have all grown to enjoy!! /sarcasm

I do applaud SotA allowing players to drop items on ground - that is an awesome tool that promotes player driven content.

 

Nevermind the troll, I share your feelings about Siege Perilous and how player justice and politics made the game far more rich and fulfilling than any game since. I loved that SP never had to deal with Trammel being apart of the shard, that you had 1 character, and you couldnt sell items to NPCs....it was completely player driven with its economy and far less inflation.

Also, I live right up the road from you in Safe Haven and remember LDH swinging by time to time and having some good fun and even going down to Cove to help out. While LDH claimed Cove as its home, Safe Haven claimed the area around the Britian/Minoc crossroads and everyone was welcome unless you broke the law...which was no fighting. Needless to say, we had an extensive list of lawbreakers, but that was the good fun. We would engage all players and guilds with talk of agreeing to leave SH a neutral zone. A lot of major builds agreed to it and would help enforce the law. We held lots of events, elections, interacted with seers, and all of it was player driven content in a PvP enabled world that had item loss risk.

 

Good for those that enjoy it. I never could.

It doesn't matter that without player conflict the players might have less to do and be bored earlier; with player conflict I simply could never have fun with a game from the start, no matter how many times I've tried. So now I don't try anymore; if a game allows other players to directly ruin my fun through PvP, I simply won't even try the game.

It does not mean that I dislike PvP per see; I actually enjoy fully consensual, Arena-style PvP, and tend to spend much of my play time engaged in it (though usually not in MMOs, I really dislike power progression of any kind in PvP). Rather, I despise non-consensual PvP and won't engage in it, not even to defend myself.

 

I remember you guys well. I would go visit from time to time and I think I watched a treasure hunt event you held there once? I showed up right after the teams were picked but it was fun to watch. And I kinda remember the NEW guild and its guild house, I donated some supplies at least once. Between our cities the Black Oak Brigands (or something like that) settled toward the end. They were great villains. Each time I ran into them it was different and never unpleasant. I think they were German role players patrolling that road between SH and Vesper as bandits.

I think one of my main points about SP though, that make it not possible on a game with only 1 shard... "Good" aligned characters who chose to play on Siege expected the danger and were ready to embrace it. While the "bad" aligned characters who chose to come there knew they would have less easy or unsuspecting newbie targets to l337 out upon. And everything took longer with the skill gain caps and harder to earn gold... These are the things that shaped what the server became. It was 80% player driven... but the reason it was 80% player driven is because they ruleset attracted certain types of players and discouraged others.

I wonder how many times a l337 PK tried to start on SP and found himself being PK'd by reds and blues working together while he was trying to kill a blue. Thinking that the reds were going to back him up.... and so he ends up quitting and going back to his normal shard.

 

All this PVP stuff. Complicating the game design. Why not just make 3 shards. Then there would be more house plots as well.

PVE shard - consensual only
PVP shard - open PVP fest full loot
Hard Mode Hybrid Shard - slow skill gain, slow economy, with open PvP and looting but with penalties for dying as a criminal (if reported.. so you can roleplay with your good or evil friend without losing stuff or at least not being griefed)

And you never see the people from the other shard choices.

They seem bent on making one game world everyone is forced into... and trying to make everyone happy in it. Just seems so difficult.