PvP town and Banning Permissions, Does it cross the line?

If a POT has serious interest in becoming a PvP hot spot, it is not in the POT's interest to earn the reputation as a POT that bans players for bogus reasons. Because if they earn that reputation, in short order they'll own a POT without any action. I just seriously doubt more than a handful of owners, if any, will abuse the authority to ban. And if they do, the PvP market will reject them. And then they're left with an empty POT. It is all self-enforcing IMO. I think people are worried about scenarios that will only rarely occur, if at all.

 

I understand you point. Do you understand mine?

 

I think they *should* police themselves. I just havn't seen it happen effectively.

And its not a picnic in a battlefield; I'm not saying we should be able to throw a party in a Shardfall any more than in the Spectral Mines. But towns are not just endless wars. People live there, they have a community there. There is a threat of violence, yes; at any time your enemies can decide that it is time to attack, or if you cross the wrong merchant you can get a shiv in an alleyway. I like that. I really do. That's the enticement of a PvP town for me.

The reality is, I've rarely been able to step into a PvP town and been able to see the town. Its just one fight to another, without any rhyme or reason. Folks don't seem to be forming teams, its just a way to kick the crap out of each other. Or worse, the town is an empty graveyard. If I can't even run into folks in these towns during peak hours, I can't imagine what they will look like a few months after release.

So for those with an Open PvP town... why is it a town? Why not just get an open zone, empty of buildings, where you can fight. Because thats mostly what I've seen in action. A town indicates some settlement, some measure of security, ownership, and mutual responsibility. A sense of neighbors, friends, and colleagues. Even an "evil" town has to be a place to grow alliances, or it fails as a town. Do you want to own ruins?

 

What happens when a guild of PvP'rs go to a town that is flagged for pvp. They go into the town expecting people to have flags on. They see flagged people. They attack those flagged people. They get banned for attacking flagged people. Word gets out that this is a poor pvp game. People lose interest and leave. If you want pve events, have them in a pve area, or expect to be attacked. I fail to see how anyone can not expect to be attacked in a pvp area.

 

Well first, that is the worst case scenario. You are expecting the town owner to ban people for engaging in an activity that they were basically invited to do. You don't want any PvP, don't flag for PvP. An owner who is going to ban people for engaging in PvP in the town they flagged for it is an idiot. Plus, the ban list isn't going to be long enough that this is a viable strategy. I can see a disreputable owner banning to prevent themselves from losing a PvP fight, but again, not the priority (also, easily fixable by locking permissions while the owner is engaged in PvP).

Banning for disrupting events, however, does make sense. Banning for exploiting does make sense. Banning for language and slurs does make sense. This is a game with a very small development staff; the GM staff will be even smaller, so expecting a report to be timely and effective is insufficient. And not everyone can be quelled just by killing them on sight. Toxic behavior needs tools to deal with it, and banning is a good tool for that. Yes, it can be exploited; that means it needs restrictions and clarification, not removal. No rules is not better than broken ones.

 

If folks come to a town and see an event happening, its fairly easy to tell that it is happening. "Hey, look at all the people sitting around watching this stuff. What noobs, let's attack them!" Yeah, that will happen, but its not good for the community. Also, your town guards failed if they were able to get to the event without anyone being alerted.

 

thats why there is a report button. Thats why there is a block ignore button. Thats why there is a social slider that will filter people. Exploitation and toxic behavior should be reported, not banned. It will allow the devs to review and if needed ban the person from the game. A simple ban just moves the person to another place to exploit.

 

then they fail as a pvp town, and should be killed. The "exploit" would be to break pvp by punishing pvp'rs that pvp. You call pvp people noobs if they want to kill other flagged avatars. Yes it might be obvious they are watching an event, but on the other hand its obvious to the avatar that they are flagged, and should expect to be attacked.

 

Report is not time sensitive. Yes, they need to be reported. But they need to be removed from the scene too.

Block/ignore only works on an individual level, and requires a scene change to take effect.

If you are changing from Open to Friends Only or SPO, you are fundamentally changing how you play. And what events you can attend, host, etc.

So yes, a POT ban is not sufficient, and moved the person elsewhere. That is a good start.

 

Why involve the bureaucracy of the devs and rely on their decision-making (and delay) when you, as a POT owner, can administer justice yourself? Meanwhile you can still report that person to the devs, so if they're a serial exploiter/nuisance the devs can also administer justice.

 

And thats why I support bans in PVE areas. Because they cannot police themselves. If you are daft enough to plan an event in a pvp area and expect to not get attacked then you should really consider going pve.

 

@Budner

 

Thats not what anyone is calling for, you are just being difficult.

You don't seem to understand that some PvP POT owners want to be part of the larger community. No one is expecting that attacks will not happen. If you have an event in a PvP area, there is a potential for PvP to start. Hack, I can imagine some great wars starting in just such a manner.

What we are looking for is a way to prevent the types of disruptions that have already plaqued so many events. One or two folks coming in, constantly disrupting the event, and noone having any recourse. Right now you can kill them, which does nothing to curb their behavior (this might change by release, but I doubt it will affect this significantly). You can ban them, so you can continue having the event without those few individuals. Or you can not have those events in your town, and thus separate yourself from the community.

I get where you see that this can be bad for PvP. Make it so it is not, but still corrects those toxic behaviors. Make a limit on how long the ban works (even 15 minutes max would make most of these folks give up). Give an option to just boot them to the overworld, but they can re-enter immediately if they choose. Limit how many can be banned in a period of time. Limit how many can be banned at once. Fix the tool, fix the behavior, grow the community.

 

I can see your point. I am not trying to be difficult. I want you to see though how this is bad for pvp. I am not sure if you are a pvp'r or a pve'r but this whole premise takes away from pvp and installes pve precautions in a pvp zone, further watering down pvp. I am sorry if I sound stubborn but I am not a socialite that just wants a world chat room. I am all for community events though, but I want them to have meaning that fit into the world, not the other way around. IF what you said above was true, and it could be in a perfect world, then there would be no problems. We simply look at things from different angles. I do not the pvp to be watered down more than it is. PvP'rs are going to be confined in small enough areas already. I hate to say it but there are not many of us left here. This does make many of us mad and I for one am trying to find reasons to stay in this game. These kind of things make me feel there is no hope. PvE rules in a pvp area make for bad pvp. In addition, how does people that do not have player owned towns and pvp in shardfalls differ. If there are exploits in shardfalls they have to use the report button also.

 

Ok, so rather than look at it as a PvE rule that is ruining your PvP, think of it another way.

You and another guild are at war, so are attempting to wage war against one another. You invade each other's towns, and have a great time. You are winning!

Now, during your last press against their fortress, two unaligned PvPers appear, talk smack, and start to use an exploit to kill off the attackers on both sides. No one can touch them. You petition, but it could be hours, or even days, before a GM can take action.

Do you want to have a method of dealing with those situations, or is going to be enough to just sit back and wait for Portalarium? Do you want to lose everything you've done that day? How is this fun?

That just touches on the PvP side of it. Even in an Open PvP town, you are going to have to deal with issues that come up in other towns; cheaters, language, blocking access, etc. Killing them is a short term solution.

 

If people use the report button, and yes it might take a bit to get it resolved, but it will be resolved. The people who are exploiting are risking sever financial loss by doing this. If this is done and people are getting banned from the game, that is the best deterrent. Not the other way around where its possible for players to exploit the ban system leaving other players with bitterness towards the game and resenting other players.

 

Prefer to have the ability to ban AND report. Still don't see how it's in a POT owner's long-term interest to misuse banning.

 

Yes budner, as you have stated repeatedly

 

Exactly, without the ability to ban, misbehavior continues until the report can be taken care of.

The ban function in a Open PvP town does not need to work the same as in PvE. It doesn't have to be permanent. It doesn't have to be abusable. It just needs to remove them from the situation temporarily.

 

Well we fail to see eye to eye. I see your point but you guys are dismissive of mine. I guess we will see what the future brings. Or you guys will.