The way the deck system should work

So let me get this straight. You hope this is like poker? I've read several books on Texas Holdem and have played numerous times in tournaments and no limit holdem in casinos. You know how you win at poker? You lose less chips than you win.

Loosing less chips than you win still means you fold or lose more hands than you actually win. In an RPG we don't have the option to fold. In PvP we don't have the option to fold, and to lose because of bad luck is not acceptable. I lost a keyboard back in 2000 because it got laggy and a person beat me that should have lost to me. He won by luck. However that was a network issue not a "built into the game" issue. As it stands luck is built into the game. THIS IS NOT POKER!

EDIT: Sorry if I'm coming across a bit rough. I've been dealing with stuff lately. Take what I said humorously because I think I'm going to leave it be because I think I made a good point but I don't intend the point to be so cranky that's all.

 

No worries, Isaiah. Nope, I don't want the game to be like poker. I've said before that I'm not sold on the deck system, just that I'm not ready to scream doom and gloom about it. My main point was simply that adding random factors is not incompatible with a skill-based competition.

If the system really is as random as poker, then yeah, that's bad. That's what I meant by the example of a poker player setting up a deck with nothing but face-card spades, or to get extreme with nothing but aces of spades. If SotA's deck system is at all well designed, you should be able to design a deck in which clutch skills are nearly always available with secondary skills popping up every few hands. In a way, it's a system of limiting the number of active, available skills a player can draw on during a fight, which is (possibly) needed to balance out classless characters. I think there are probably better ways of doing that, like ESO's system where you're only allowed five abilities on your hotbar at a time. (ETA: I should point out that this works in ESO because you always have a pretty good variety of standard attacks with each weapon and because resources get used up fast. Even if more moves were allowed, you don't really have enough mana and stamina to use more than that anyway.)

Another reason I'm not convinced that it's a good idea is that the motivation for using this system was, in part, to avoid players using rote move rotations. The thing is, I don't really see how the proposed system actually gets rid of rotations; it just scrambles the buttons you have to press for each part of the rotation. This could be done more easily by simply scrambling up our hotbars every ten seconds. (It can also be done by putting in limits on the number of copies of abilities can be put in a deck, but doing so greatly increases the chances of players getting bum hands, which I think needs to be largely avoidable for it to be a good system.)

Still, it's worth a shot. If it ends up working that one in a hundred fights are lost because of bum hands, well, that's not really a problem to me. Real combat sometimes turns on luck too, and the Comcast internet connection lotto is probably going to get me killed more often than that anyway.

 

The random element is a lot more controlled when you can stack the deck. If you had a deck in poker only you drew from that was full of Aces you would probably win a lot more.

But Poker is a bad example because of the limited number of different cards and no deck stacking. When you control your deck ratio of cards then you very rarely are surprised by your draw. In Magic, your main problem was land which you needed, but it would kill you if you drew to many or too little. Since we have Focus in SOTA that is not a card mechanic, all you will have to build and draw from in your deck is useful cards. That should make things very controllable, and make a "bad draw" something less critical to winning or losing.

 

I don't know... Playing a game on a table top is much less time oriented, and less stressful than being in a PvP situation where every hit counts. I'm more than just not sold on this system. I guess there's nothing we can do about it until they release it, but I really can say this doesn't sound fun to me, and it sounds stressful.

 

The latest Magic PC game runs on a timer. You can have it pause in the options, but the default is a very nice paced, real time game. The problem is knowing the cards since you have to view them to get the rules adjustment, which pauses, and combat assignment, which also pauses. However, once you know the cards, and if there are not a lot of creatures, it is a swift and engaging experience. I doubt there will be "card viewing" or creature battles to slow things down, so SOTA combat should be pretty fast paced.

I am sure they will get it tuned into something nice.

 

So first off, be careful with studies. Most studies are rigged just based on who funded them. it is also important to look at how they are run to justify the outcome. Remember there are NUMEROUS studies that say video games cause violence and should be outlawed. I will let you try and guess who funded those. As such, unless these are unbiased scientific studies based up by other independent researchers, I would toss them off the table.

As for poker being a game of skill, there is a lot of debate on that one. Usually this argument is used to determine whether poker is considered gambling. As many laws say its gambling if its a game of chance, poker players will try to argue it is a game of skill to get around the law. These days that verbiage has been worked out of many laws or the definition of a "game of chance" is made pretty broad. Funny how bingo always seems to get off squeaky clean though.

Personally, as I said before, poker is a bad example for SOTA because you don't stack your deck. People that count cards win a lot which is why they get kicked out and banned when they are caught, so there is something about knowing what is in the deck.

 

Every RPG's combat system has a luck factor because there are dice rolls behind the scenes. Some systems are fairly static (larger dependence on stats with a small dynamic range from dice rolls) where others are vastly more dynamic.

SotA will have a luck factor, but it will still be a game of skill.

 

I'd rather roll a d20, or have a percentage to hit a person. We'll probably see this implemented in sota anyway in some way. However it is something that goes on behind the scenes. I don't have to keep my eyes watching cards pop up and try to figure out really fast how to play them or not when it's just a dye role.

In fact I would probably be more happy if the system automatically played my skills for me so I don't have the stress of having to manage the toolbar. I pay for X number of that skill and the system determines when it will be executed. That's a lot of stress off my shoulders. If luck is going to be involved then take the burden off my shoulders and let it just play out for me.
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As it stands there is an option to have a skill act as a noble skill. You cannot combine it with another skill but at least it stays on your bar all the time. The problem with that is that if you really want to be competitive you still need to use the card system. Using all noble skills would likely not be as powerful because it lacks the chances for combos that a person who uses the full card system not locking in skills as permanent noble skills. The stress of having to manage all that bothers me more than the random part.

In fact I don't mind skills coming up at random for weapon based skills. Spells coming up at random is what doesn't make sense to me. I can understand things like parry requiring a specific timing, but casting fireball or casting a healing spell should happen when you think of it. There should never be a time in a combat where you have to wait for a heal spell to pop up or your fireball to popup. You heal your friend when he is damaged. You throw the fireball when the enemies are bunched up. The whole spell thing has got to be change. No need to test it, that part is broken and needs to be fixed.

 

Compare a Paladium table top RPG system with West End's D6 system.

In Paladium, if you had 95% in a skill, you only had a 5% chance of missing.

With West End's D6, your stats and skills were represented with D6 dice. And every roll had at least one wild D6, where you could get a 6 and keep re-rolling all day, or get a 1 and have a complication. So 1 out of 3 rolls had a good or bad dynamic effect. It was a very random system with a heavy emphasis on luck.

 

I don't like either of those systems, but tend to dislike the 1 in 3 rolls having an extreme effect. Trained armsmen don't drop their swords every three swings. (I'm joking but they don't have a catastrophic failure 1/3 of the time).

 

1 in 6 times you'd have a critical success, and 1 in 6 times you'd have a critical failure, so 1 in 3 times, there would be some sort of big deviation from the norm.

I loved how simple the West End system was, and it worked well for a cinematic game like Star Wars. But it was random almost to a fault.

 

I liked UO's system for determining when you have a valid hit. It was a skill vs skill system. If you were a GM 100 skill points and your opponent was a GM 100 skill points you had a 50% chance to hit. If you were attacking a person who was at 90 skill points and you had 100 I think you had a 60% chance to hit.

There was always a chance you would miss, and a chance you could hit regardless of skill. After all these years of online games that system is still my favorite system for determining the probability to hit an opponent or be hit.

EDIT: However this is a deck system thread and this is sort of off topic.

 

Having a way to set auto-play of skills might be interesting. Or maybe a rules type system for saying if x monsters and x card pops up then play.

Also remember there are skills that allow you to lock cards, so they would work just like a hotbar. So if you want to dedicate your skills just to avoid the card play that will be possible.

 

Yeah that hotbar idea is what I was talking about. You can make a skill static and it becomes a noble skill. However I see that a person playing like that is really at a disadvantage to a person who uses a deck correctly. Also the static skills are supposed to cost more focus too.

However I like the auto-play you mentioned about setting a rule of Play X if it is available when $OPPONENT is below yellow in the damage indicator. Stuff like that. This might be less freedom than using the deck manually, but it might be more efficient for older people who aren't as quick. Also less managing stuff. I REALLY LIKE WHERE THIS COULD GO.

 

Although play may be different and less variable I doubt it will be a disadvantage. Stacking the deck gives a lot to the game, and the right cards and predictability should not be undervalued.

I also doubt the play will fast paced. You will cast them as needed rather then at phases. The auto discard will be the trickiest and I bet they make discarding manual after testing. The flow will probably end up being fast enough that you will be paying attention but lesuirely enough to enjoy the game. Some events or plays might be racy to pull off, but I doubt those will be required.

I am excited to see it. I am normally not a fan of card mechanics across game types, but I am looking forward to strategic combat for a change.

 

Yes and describing it as a deck system can be misleading as Richard stated.

I thought Richard said something about random skills becoming available, but at the time I'm not so sure they had it all worked out either.

So very soon we shall see their current thinking on it personally or at least a first rendition of it ,

and my gorgeous avatar/character which I can rename something other than Miss Ugly.

**still crossing fingers**.

 

I'm tired of people saying let's wait till they disclose their current thinking on the subject before we state any objections. We already know there current thinking.

https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/forum/index.php?threads/lets-talk-about-combat.4094/

This is a deck system and to call it otherwise is misleading. This is a deck combat system. This is exactly what we have been talking about.

 

Good evening Avatars! I see that I need to temporarily lock this thread for cleaning. When cleaned, I will reopen it. In the meantime, I will leave you with this link for some light reading: Forum Rules

EDIT: Ok, done cleaning. Please keep the language clean and no more personal attacks. Thanks!

 

yup i dont like the deck thing it wont make me feel powerfull it will just make me feel lucky or unlucky.

 

Precisely. That's half of my problem with it. I played M:TG a long time ago. I enjoyed it, but I played it when I wanted to play a card game - not when I wanted to play an RPG.
When I want to play an RPG I want to play an RPG - not a card game. SWG tried adding card game junk in too, and it sucked. Yes, yes, I know it wasn't part of combat - honestly it would have only been more horrible if it had been.
I do know that I won't participate in this system. I doubt I'll be able to have any long term meaningful play without any combat, so I guess that means I probably won't play the game.
The only thing left for me to decide at this point is whether to sell off my RF citizen acct now, or wait and hope that this system is removed and if it's not sell later (or try to).