Why you can not balance Skills in PvP in a game that has Skill and Exp Levels - Never.

PvP Balance Ideas?

Ok I have shown why Balance in PvP in a MMORPG can never be achieved, unless some type of forced balance is presented for the Skills and Levels of the players? So I am going to present a quick idea that I think might work. It will not totally counter the template / skill of the day but it is the closest thing in can think of to achieve balance and give players somewhat of an equal footing when engaging in PvP. There is also Equipment to be dealt with but that is easy to look at.

Now this only take affect when player engage in PvP. It will require two more things to change in Skills and Decks. In Skills there si going to need to be a PvP Skill Set. This will be skills chosen by the player that will be used and they will also be preset to a certain Level. And 2 more Deck specifically designed as PvP only and they do not count again the other decks we have now.

Ok the reason there cannot be Balance **is simply because players have trained their skills differently some are 100+ while others are just starting out. What this idea will do is make it so that the skills used in the fight are either 100 or 50. We will go into how these skills are chosen and limits. Basically, We are going to look at Skill Trees, Innates and allow them to be chosen to be GM or 50 when a PvP fight Starts.

Ok we must work within the skills give to us – my proposal is Simple you get to choose One Weapon Skill One Armor Tree and you can choose Shields we will offset this by reducing the # skill trees from Magics or tactics later on. Now you chose a Weapon Skill tree and in that tree you have the choice of 10 Skills which are GM (Level 100 ) and the rest in that tree are set to level 50 . Now these skills must be trained somewhat in the first place so to choose one to be GM it must be at least 50 and at least training to be set to 50. If it is below 50 it can at best be 50.. You could chose two ore more Weapon Skill Trees, but it would mean you would be forced to have lesser options from Magics. A little further in the proposal we will cover Decks. You can then Chose Light or Heavy Armor and 5 there can be GM (level 100) and the rest are 50. These are mostly all never used in a deck so it should work out. Shields is a whole other issue since it is an extra combat / defensive area in the Combat Section. SO to offset this if you chose it, it will reduce the number of Trees you can use from the Magic Set by one. Mages if you chose not to use any of the Weapons or Shields you could affectively use 2 more Fire Trees. Now if you want to use more weapons less Margery and more Margery less weapons. . . .

I do not really have to go much further since the concept is pretty much the same for each section. In the Magic Area you would get to choose from 5 of the trees. In each of these trees you would get to select only 8 skills to be GM and the rest at 50. The same would apply they would at least have to be trained above 50 to be allowed to be set to GM If you chose no Weapons then you could get 3 more trees?

Strategy Area cold have selection from all areas just have to figure out number of GMs allowed and the rest to 50.

This would affectedly balance each skill so that power gamers would not have an advantage of players. Again, this would not prevent the Skill / Template of the day since a Water Ranger could figure out how to take out a Bladed Fire. Or a Mage could figure out how to take out another.

This concept is only designed to present a Base Line Balance for PvP across the board. This does not address the rewards for PvP, I will give a paragraph at the end about that.

Now this would mean that they would preselect their skills in the Skill Window as the ones they want GMed or level for PvP and then they could create Two PvP decks that used the PvP skills. These would become active upon entering PvP Combat and ONLY for player in engagement with another in PvPer. There ability to engage with Mobs would be forced to use these skills but would have to have the Exp earned shut off since this could lead to players with only 50 in skills just jumping in to PvP with a friend to just have a bunch of GM skills, and use them to kill critters. That cannot be allowed. This change is only to affectively balance PvP combat. It is the only way I see to even come close to achieving balance in PvP Skills and levels.

The Equipment is a sad but simple fix – there must be a categorized grouping system set up and values assigned for level of special traits and abilities. The armor need to be balanced so a plyer in Plate is a Plyer in Plate – but if he had it made and created so as to increase basic health abilities then his health regen is boosted 2 / second and 15 points as a bonus for a whole plate suite made to cater to health. It would be better to just make them all the same Plate is Plate but them why would players bother to have / wear different pieces. Also when it come to looting this would create a Nightmare. This part in itself is not something I see as a easy fix with e looting system. If the looting goes away, then not a big deal and the bonuses can stay since the suits will not just be lost.

Now the rewards. The Heads / hands/ and other trophies should not be able to be gotten back. As for other items from loot that is becoming something more complex since there are some very nice pieces being made that are very valuable to collect and put together. Since they want PvP to be such an integral part fo the game this is something that needs to be looked as hard. And what I see coming is an insurance thing just like they did in UO it will not make the PvP guys happy as they want to take your stuff but???

My first concern is the proposal to balance the Skills / levels out of PvP once that is done then we can move on with PvP content.

Now there are a bunch of people who are just going to reply to this and say it is stupid, that I am just bashing PvP . . . . If you do not like it out right so be it make a simple post that you do not like it, and walk away. If you chose to attack be specific to direct comments referencing an idea or two would be nice , and options. Plain out just attacking the idea without a descent counter is not productive. If you looked thru this you saw nothing about exp, training. Or anything other than how to balance PvP.

** also do not come in here and try and tell me about balance has nothing to do with the Skills / Levels, I have clearly show that PvP s just like every other PvP game out there ,the only problem we have that separates players is the different skill and player levels. Once they are equal then PvP can move forward. And PvP can really be the “Skill” of the player not how much power gaming he has done.

Lastly if concepts like this are not looked at and worked into the game, the game will spend the next 20 years (if it lasts that long) chasing the ever elusive PvP balance - you have to take the skills / level out.

 

Its times like this im glad he has me on ignore.

Where is this * clearly shown you can never have a balanced pvp * fact found? He claims to have shown it. Link?

And to summarize, he wants to basically you pick your skills going in ( 10 or 15 or so ) and they all even out across board with other players.
So in pvp a 5 year vet is equal to a 3 hour character should they both go to PVP.

Mobs would have to be removed from pvp zones.
.. i would never play the story.. id come in and do 45 min on pvp.. realize that is the pinacle of my end game ( imo end game is pvp ) .. realize theres no reason to advance my character as this eliminates need and point of character progression... and be done.

While i agree pvp needs more then just a flag for open world. No i disagree that this is the solution, and disagree you need balanced ability levels across the board to have an active pvp game.

 

agree

Would just turn pvp into an fps type shooter battleground, yes its a way of balancing a game and making everything 'fair' but it would totally destroy any purpose in the world in gaining skills and actually playing the game and having your skills you have earned have an effect. I never play battlegrounds in any games, well i have, but my interest in them wains very quickly, as i cant see the point in just fighting to get on a leader board. PvP needs to have consequence in the world itself, where by means of time input, skills, politics,logistics, basically living in the world and playing in the world is part and parcel of pvp....factions/area holding/resources/etc , all create FREE content where players and guilds make the story themselves.

 

No you really haven't.
Really. No. Belive me.

There are games out there that try this already.
So far it isn't working.
WoW has the latest iteration of this kind of PvP specific skillset and we will see how it goes but so far it seems to be the next medicore solution in a row of medicore to bad solutions.

Yes. Well, thats the basic flavour of PvP. I see you aren't able to understand that because you have a anti PvP mindest but let an old non-grief-pvp player tell you that an important part of PvP is the theroycrafting part.
Makeing it more easy won't balance it nor won't it save whatever you want to save with your idea.

I won't get too much into detail because you are basically repeating yourself.
As @MrBlight already pointed out you want a form of internetpvpcommunism where everybody is the same.
It dosen't work. There are a lot of games out there that try this and it sucks.
Your idea isn't new nor is it innovative. It is tested and it failed in my opinion.

 

The question mark is throwing me off...are you stating that you have or asking if you have?

Either way, the answer/response is "LOL no. Not even a little."

 

two things...

1. you really gotta start including a tl;dr with all your posts
2. you have no idea what you're talking about when it comes to PVP

I've been static flagged for Open PVP for all of R36 and have spent 100% of my time in multiplayer - Open PVP isn't broken and it doesn't need fixing. There need's to be context in the the story of SotA for meaningful PVP - but the foundation of Open PVP is fine - Open PVP needs to be forced multiplayer and that's that. That'll be enough - welcome to the sandbox.

 

the only way to have a balanced and good PVP is if you set the game up differently.
the problem is anyone can do or be anything. solve that problem and balancing will form. At this point you will have certain types of characters with certain skills (dare i say D&D style characters) for instance mages should not be able to withstand so much damage, if they are wearing cloth! Typically higher level mages would PVP, but other lower ones would run from it as an example. put a skull above someones name if the are so many level higher than you. With different types of characters you could have a party where each would be able to rely upon each other in PVP.

 

Games servers should also be on the moon.. no one should have "ping" advantage.

Just my two cents..

 

Why did I open this thread? Why did I think it was worth reading?

Its like watching a really bad movie and getting 3rd party embarrassment.

Can non- PvPers please stick to the stuff they know about? ........ Just do the PvPers a favour.......and do yourself a favour and save yourself the time of writing the wall of text.

 

What games are currently doing this. I'd be curious to try them out for kicks.

 

His posts have actually improved in major ways CoNSIderING He USEd tO TYpe lIKe THis and it's not a wall of text. I'm not complaining.

Which isn't a bad idea, to be honest. The original GuildWars had a similar system and it worked great. The main difference is that PvP-exclusive characters only had access to skills that you unlocked on your account.

It's just not something I'd like to see in SotA, that's all.

When did this happen?

Just so you know, it's not that game developers can't balance PvP; is that's they won't... for a very good reason: the game gets stale. Game developers know that their players will adapt a new metagame so long as they (the devs) don't throw balance out the window and that keeps the game interesting.

 

I can see a place for this idea. Here is how I'd do it...

Now, in open pvp you cannot engage with anyone that doesn't fall within the 'balanced level range'. AKA 20 levels below or above you. (no more ganking newbies)

But, you still can pvp someone more than 20 levels below you except it will use a system like the OPs idea. (unless he really deserves it and you really want to kill him).

 

ESO. They have separate balancing for PVP and PVE. Neither invalidates the other. A level 10 can, under the right circumstances defeat a champion level 500.

 

ESO's PvP has a separate environment from PvE, but that's about it. Skills cross over no problem and has very little exceptions or exclusivity... and so does, in a way (except maybe when you raid), gear.

As someone who has leveled up practically entirely from within Cyrodiil, I call BS on the "level 10 vs champion level 500". It wasn't true in vanilla when there we no veteran ranks, and it's certainly not true now... UNLESS, of course, you're talking about campaign servers that ignore champion points which still makes your statement technically untrue; it's just a level 10 vs 50 and the only reason why the level 50 wouldn't 1-shot the level 10 is due to a subpar level scaling.

I didn't start being competitive in recent ESO days until I was champion level 160... reason being that it's the maximum level requirement for items.

Or are you talking about a level 10 alt character playing on a champion 512 account on a champion enabled campaign? At which point... while I still believe that's not practically possible (due to your items being garbage vs someone who's fully equipped and champion 500, by your own statement), why omit that very important piece of information from your argument?

Lets not forget that the best way to level up in ESO isn't to PvP... but to complete the entirety of the PvE content (aka: ALL of the quests for all three factions, including Craglorn) at which point would still not be enough to reach champion 160... you do the rest by grinding.

I managed to do it by repeating the same daily PvE-in-PvP quests in Cheydinhal and Bruma over, and over, and over again.

So as much as I like ESO's PvP, no, I don't believe ESO fits that description.

 

I totally disagree with everything you just said and my experience in the game differs greatly.

I'm not going to go to great lengths discussing how ESOs PVP balancing works but I'll simplify it for non ESO players.

In ESO, for the sake of this discussion in PVP everyone starts with the stats of a level 50 character. Level 50 being the level cap. So, depending on the build you will see characters who are level 50 with 19,000 HP and level 15 characters with 40,000 HP or vice versa.
The typical light attack deals around 1024, a good attack will deal somewhere in the ballpark of 4,000 - 6,000 with really good criticals dealing 10,000 or more. These numbers are level agnostic. My level 10 Dragon Knight deals 6k with his boulders while my champion level 130 tank deals 3k with his sword and shield. My tank also has 52,000 HP instead of the 20,000 my Dragon Knight has.
My tank would probably defeat my dk in a one on one fight because my tank has exceptional gear for his level and my dk has whatever he picked up... However I've dueled and killed players who were much higher than me because level itself has no bearing on our interactions.

To say that the only thing different about ESO is the environment is not agreeable to me. Yes, significantly higher level characters have access to more skills and buffs than lower ones but there's no magic number making them untouchable.

SotA COULD do this. If they wanted. I'm guessing they don't and that's fine. ESO is unique in this respect although GW2 has a similar idea.

My enthusiasm for ESOs level agnostic PVP is because it has enabled people that I know who normally hate PVP to participate in it, contribute in it and have a great time. Yes, certain characters are OP and that's always going to be the case but at least they can get in there and kick some butt.

Also GIX. You're totally, demonstrably wrong about leveling to 160. My main is level 135 and I made him 1 and a half months ago and aside from PVP and Dungeons, I've done one major quest line and 2 zones worth of quests. You absolutely do not need to do anywhere near all three factions worth of quests to hit 160.

 

@Baratan believe what you will. A character with champion points would destroy any new level 10 character that has no gear and no champion points... regardless of how much fun the low level may have.

They'd be hard pressed to fight a Cyrodiil guard NPC on their own.

 

Why would a level 10 character have no gear? Also. Why does fighting guards, which is PVE even being mentioned? TBH. I had no problem with the guard npcs at lower levels but that's because of the level agnostic PVE. Nothing to do with PVP.

A champion level 500 would have an advantage over a level 15 but nowhere near the disparity present in SotA and other level based games. You keep referring to champion points but you're ignoring the facts that a. SotA obviously doesn't have this system and b. Half of the PVP population plays in servers with them disabled. SotA doesn't need to include the champion point system to introduce level agnostic PVP.

PS, my level 7 Nightblade friend kills the guards in Cyrodiil faster than my level 120 Templar did.

 

I'm not derailing the thread anymore than what I'll be saying now: You're the one who claims that a level 10 can kill a level50 character with 500 champion points... so please don't "SotA doesn't use this system" me as if I was the one who brought it up. If you're not playing on campaign with champions (champion campaigns have by far the highest population in the American servers), then you're really not killing 500 champion characters like you originally claimed, are you?

Yes, SotA doesn't use this system. Yes, SotA has it worse but I want neither the current one nor ESO's for SotA.

P.S. - does your level 7 nightblade buddy have a main character at level 50 with champion points? Because, if so, then that's how he's out-performing you. Those points are account bound.

Answer me in PM if you wish to reply.

 

Yes. They can. (A 10 vs a CL 500) It isn't a de-rail its the subject topic. Log into ESO right now and I'll GLADLY demonstrate it to you.
I've killed them in Cyrodiil and in duels, but that's irrelevant. I'm actually more interested in my group of gamer friends who enjoy ESO's PVP while they generally dislike PVP in any other game. I am very interested in thinking of ways to make SotA more attractive to more gamers.

PS. No, he doesn't have a higher level character. I can show you in ESO right now my level 10 DK with no Champion Points spent doing 8k damage. Being level 50 with x amount of champion points doesn't automatically mean you will do more damage. In fact, you can easily do less with lower quality gear.

 

I (Level 6 DK) got together with a guild mate (Champion Level 97 Templar) to make a short video demonstrating how ESO's level agnosticism actually works in PVP. Afterwords she swore she could have beaten me. I believe her, but at the same time I also could have beaten her despite a 141 level difference between our characters. This doesn't prevent us from leveling or becoming more powerful. The fight was actually more closer than I thought, considering that imo her character's gear is much better for her level than mine, but my character is built for single target destruction while she's built for more of a support role. The idea is, I wasn't totally unable to damager her and utterly crushed on the basis of character level alone.

^Click to Watch Video^