Questions to the PVP Players

That's why I ask if the PvPers can handle this.
I must say I guessed not, unfortunately , but this is my gaming experience the last 25years and I was allways in between, but for sure at the end more PvE , immersion and RP related , but allways with a love to PvP if the compromise was possible.

I think it's allways possible to have fun either, but with a strong competetive and progress oriented playstyle it's difficult i see.

But on this hand I cannot understand the PvPers expectations they have as it was allways offered as a consensual PvP game and this is neither fish nor flesh per definition!!!

 

My impression is that its for a lot of people too restrictive and a lot of energy/resources is wasted to model this "consensual" thing. I dont know if it only looks on the forums like this, but i dont see that much consens between a lot of PvPlers and PvE'ers. Instead i see a lot of "whining". I mean, SotA could have got a huge player base just by having the "old UO'lers" stay.

Having a PvP+ server from the start would most probably ensured that. With the addon that most of them most probably like a good background story and player events but can live without it as long as as you have a solid PvP sandbox with "Ultima background".

I met a lot of players during my time on Shadowbane who had a similiar take on MMO gaming. Which i always respected. I mostly try to stay in character if i see or know someone who is an RP'ler.

Its not this. To be honest, i am a bit afraid i cant spend enough time to become a top PvPer. To be really good, you have to commit and spend an insane amount of time studying, learn and practice. Just like with everything else in live where you want to be really good.

For me its like a lot of "things" i like doing in PvP MMORPGs is plainly not possible in SotA. Lets say i have a beef with character A or Guild A because they PKd/griefed/robbed me too often. Or like someone else posted in a different thread here, had been more or less harrassed a bit by a thief. I like group PvP but i also enjoy soloing. So sometimes i figure out where this person or guild resides and try to get my revenge on them. I sneak into their POT (during off peak time mostly on a full server) and try to assasinate some of the culprits or killing them off while macroing. Or i hide next to the house of a fiend, wait for him to return home to kill and loot him.

Here in SotA a town owner/admin can put me on a ban list and thats it(?!). Cant enter town anymore and there wont be any loot worth mentioning. Out-of-Game-Solution. In Shadowbane (sorry if i refer to often to it) it had been difficult to enter protected towns because, unless you had cover, the archer guards would spick you with arrows constantly, but it had been possible.

SotA just feels too comfy and secure for my taste. In an PvP+ environment a "magic" blacklist keeping players out of a player run town is a game killer. Sieges not possible. You should be able to hire guards/archers to protect youre town in _off_peak_ time. During peak time you should have enough players to protect it. If not, you cant run a POT!!!!!

To mee it seems they cater soo much for their house owners and casual PvE'ers that they kill of the game.

The problem is that no one really knows what "consensual PvP" is or has a different idea what it is or should be. Just read here... Further its a matter of how exactly its implemented. And to be honest, i think it had been a nice, idealistic idea which already had been crushed by reality.

Regarding the expectations: This game had a lot of pre-reputation because of UO, the Ultima series and Mr. Garriot.

// Armar

 

I see and I like it because I am casual, lazy roleplayer
I quote myself from this thread https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/f...red-to-complete-game.75353/page-4#post-732719 , but it's not meant as harsh as it maybe sounds .

"After some thinking and discussions in other threads around the theme PvP i come to this conclusion.

1st game was always offered as a consensual PvP Game, this said this is a well known limitation for every PvPer as he will never have the possibility to attack everybody everywhere!

2nd offering PvP only scenes/ cities/ dungeons limits the PvE players!!! for no reason but a concession for PvPers who have the limitation of the chosen PvP design from the beginning!!!



3rd PvPers have to accept that the game is more about PvE and less about PvP. I am still pro PvP but I don't like the decisions to make concessions to the PvP players and limitate PvErs in the ongoing process because PvPers limitation was a design decision and the limitation of PvErs is more like the above mentioned concession to PvP players. Don't like it and don't feel this is neccessary.

What PvPers want is that it is for everybody hard and risky as for them while PvP .
But this tends to be no more consensual.
They don't like SPO or FM and call it exploit or unfair advantage although they can do also.
But they want allways and everywhere the thrill and the risk , but for everyone, otherwise they feel disadvantaged!

To me it is - deal with the consensual PvP decision or recognize this is no hardcore PvP game!

I don't see any cause to limit PvEers because of some want PvP but cannot handle it's consensual and no constraint competition at all, but in the first line a immersive environment for cooperation with a backstory and deep lore.

You can have PvP among each other everywhere , you maybe get seperated from PvE players this or that way (server, mirrors?) , but you have to accept that you cannot force everybody in competition neither in MP PvE nor in PvP at all!

If there are PvP only zones they should PvP themed and lore related but not related to lore what is important to PvErs too.
Shardfalls and Ruins are important to Roleplayers who often or more are cooperative PvE players with maybe some love for PvP from time to time.

If they want the PvPers have PvP exclusive Scenes , create CP scenes for them or siege Scenes where one side defend a keep and the others attack.
And no special loot, mobs or ressources!!!

This would be no limitation to PvE players and let the PvPers have exclusive Scenes.
Let them have PvP titles and PvP cloaks and her yards full of bones and skulls of their enemy's."

 

Need to made an addition.

PvE is core content, PvP is an option! Think of it!

 

Being here from the beginning I've watched this cyclical topic roll around over and over.

It always ends with "make a PvP server".

So cutting to the end of the cycle, no dev will ever respond but a PvP server will never happen.

But if you want to actually discuss what would happen if they did. PvP still looks exactly the same only now the people that would have like to switch back and forth will not be able to do so. There might be some non consensual PvP types that come to check things out again but will see no changes and leave again.

The next thing that WILL happen is the PvP server will demand detatchment from the story and more focus on sandbox. The story would act as funnel points for attacking people with their guard down or fully geared in their best gear. (Retracing UO's path with this route)

Want to see frustrated game dev's ignore their content. Applies to anything. If no one PvP's they will focus on it. If no one is questing, etc. PvP must be a source of frustration for them right now but a PvP server be even more. Specially when you add in the split of housing.

I'm not digging through all those old dev hangouts and the old forum threads have been archived. So I can't expect people to hunt down the reasons why Port has no interest in putting PvP above all else. It is the case. This is a story driven game even if we haven't see the story driver or vehicle. This doesn't make PvPers a second class citizen it establishes that the game they wish to deliver is a vehicle for an on going story and it must be protected. UO proved this is not possible as all story stops until PvP stops.

Making a PvP server is infact making 2 different games. To be able to meet the needs of both servers it would be required.

Not making a PvP server means something holds higher priority to PvP. That's either accepted or it's not.

Since we never get blunt comments from the dev's on this topic we get the PvP forum cycle indefinitely.

 

Real question.

We have 4 modes of play right now: SP Online, Friends only, MPO, and SP Offline.

Would making PVP a 5th mode have been technically possible? No more flagging? No specific zones for PVP?

I know the ship has sailed already, but just curious if it could have been an option.

 

That would be interesting to know and see implemented.

However, wouldn't it be the same as we have now, basically? Where the PvP zones are often empty, and most people looking for PvP are in the 5-skull zones trying to find other players to engage with in PvP? What would that "mode" look like - about 10 people on one huge overland map chasing one another down?

Nice idea, but I don't think it would be much different. Maybe, dunno.

 

Right now it wouldn't be very populated at all of course. But after release with a large influx of players possibly? Then PVP could be everywhere all the time, full loot, ect... It would need tweaks and balances because it would be an easy gankfest on noobs.

Empty argument though because things have clearly gone a different direction. Maybe they didn't think they would ever get enough players to support a PVP mode.

 

They can't have possibly thought that, could they have? I mean, they remember UO, right?

 

I already mentioned a MP PvP mode where you are flagged always and only see who entered MP PvP.

But then they feel disadvantaged because it's not seperated and you can go develop in PVE or FM or SP and Pvp isnt exklusive.

@Ristra 1St round in this cycle, but done with my läßt Statement.
This game isnt for pvpers in the first line!!!
Point and End of Discussion for me.

 

Google Star Wars Galaxies PVP pre NGE... consent PVP at its best. End of discussion It is possible. It is not yet available SotA.

 

Filtering by PvP flag shouldn't be an issue. Separating anything persistent like housing would be the issue.

 

But this isn't true. SotA can have a strong PvP footing. The only thing that must be accepted is the Story comes first. All else is possible.

Basically, it's the mindset that "I can't attack everyone any time I want" that will not be able to exist. There are many many many other levels of PvP.

It's also just as true that in SotA the plan was never to be a "I never want to see PvP ever" type of a game. There will be times where PvP will be in the way.

If the old forum posts where not archived I'd hunt down the post by RG that illustrates the thought process. "Paths of light exist but some times they will become dark". Not a quote but the general idea. People following the path of light will have to make choices. Wait, jump in, or go around.

And that is why the thread over there about quests and PvP exists. Because they can't see those kind of comments.

 

For sota to be successful it needs to be a pve game with pvp sprinkled on top. The further they lean to a pvp orientated game the less successful they will be.

For example, I played EQ for 15 years nearly. It had 20+ well populated blue servers (non-pvp) but only 1 red server (full pvp) that 'always' suffered from a very low population.

 

I agree @Ristra

 

Found a good article regarding the 'Star Wars: Galaxies' pre-NGE PvP system on your recommendation. Following this model would basically solve every problem we have with PVP vs PVE. I really wish we could do this!

Linked the article if people want to look it over.

https://www.engadget.com/2014/01/17/some-assembly-required-pre-nge-swgs-proper-sandbox-pvp/

 

It was developed by people who worked for UO if I recall correctly.

 

It has quests that flag people for PVP. That's OK if they are optional quests that are not part of the main quest line, but if they are necessary for progression then that violates the consensual PVP requirement.

 

Right, i wouldnt expect to be able to sneak into a PvP- town and attack someone but i can expect to be able to sneak into a PvP+ town and do it. As far as i understand from the forum (!) _every_ PvP+ POT owner can just blacklist characters from entering his town (?!). ( Can someone confirm that this is true?)

Which brings, again up the question why do "it" at all?! Had they given the PvPers a PvP+ server and just left the people with the choice between PvE, or PvE with "a bit of consensual PvP" and a "pure" PvP+ server they probably wont have lost a huge part of the player base. Now there is a problem with the playerbase but _maybe_ this is, at least partly because the "consensual PvP" idea is a dead horse? Imagine not having this and just put all the energy that gets sucked up by this into something constructive to the game.

No, i just dont want people to be able to be not accountable. You are PvP+ then your house and town has to be PvP+ too. You can protect it by setting up guards and hopefully have your guildmates around most of the time but thats it. It must be possible to kill off the guards and fight the guild at their homebase IF flagged PvP+.

But then again, these are problems we only have with this "consensual PvP" system we find in SotA.

I dont have any issues at all with this.

I am totally comfy with people who are PvP- and dont want to get bothered.

Also do understand that. But this is where the "consensual PvP thing" creates a problem because as no one exactly knows what it means it creates expectations which cant be fullfilled. As far as i see cant be fullfilled for too much people.

Fully understood and accepted. But then i dont feel this in-game. I didnt played this much but i did never felt dragged into a story line or really "immersed". Part of the world and towns are beautifully crafted but still feel liveless. And i am not talking about having somewhat outdated GFXs. Starts with the NPCs and ends with towns full of unsused player houses with overdone garden decoration slowing down my graphic card.

Did i say somewhere, or give hint in any other form that i want this?

PvP+ zones shouldnt be required for PvP-/PvE players. We agree here. From the bit i know from the forums it seems that the Devs offer two ways to complete the story line. One going through a PvP+ zone, one by circiumventing it. Having a look at the game-design i am pretty sure that there will always be a way around PvP+ zones for pure PvE'ers. Then this game is still in testing, the PvP+ zones mostly empty so why not just try to get through and start complaining after you run into problems, not before you run into problems.

I hear you....

For me, this all leads back to a simple solution: Have a PvP+ server and be done once for all "with all of this". Realize it had been a nice idea which doesnt seem do work out for anybody, or does it? Clone the server and open all scenes for all.

One could say: More work, more risk more reward, its consensual PvP, its not a pure PvE game? And it sounds a bit like "I dont want to work for it and take the risk but i still want the whole cookie, damm it." When sticking to your argumentation that its not a "pure PvE" game i could also state that you need to "live with it"?! But if both sides dont feel comfortable with it and it seems to be a very constant source of complaints from both sides => why not get rid if it once and for all (i know, low payerbase)....

Dont need "that stuff".... *Yawn*

// Armar

 

PvE is core content for every MMO incl. PvP+ MMO's. Its part of the resource system.

// Armar