Questions to the PVP Players

It's interesting to watch "PvP needs more" when the game itself has nothing. Grind and farm grind and farm. Of course PvP is nothing beyond just flagging open PvP. There's nothing more for PvE either.

 

Hi,

Because its a natural solution.

Thats what i anticipated.

I dont want ppl to be able to switch... i would like them to commit to either playstyle.

The fighting system surely needs more work and i fear you are right.

Not neccessarily. Most companies cant even introduce a compelling story line into a MMORPG game. I only did experience this in Shadowbane and the events felt constructed to me. Wouldnt they handed out special gear at the end of the events i doubt a lot of people would have shown up. And they did special events for all the different races and their RPG settings. I never ever felt a story line anywhere in the game. But there had been a really good natural story line created by the player themselves. Induced and acted out in an RP way via PvP.

To have a real, immersing story line you would need to CONSTANTLY have company paid "actors" in game.

Easily solvable, make gear on your boddy not lootable or make everything lootable. In the first case you dont loose your hammer of awesomeness, in the second case your hammer of awesomeness doesnt mean a thing unlesss your are a really good fighter.

No one is expecting anyone to put "PvP above else".

Well YES?! Its a story driven game but really doesnt has a story (yet)?! But it has most parts of a good sandbox MMORPG in place. And thats (nearly) all you need for a good PvP+ MMORPG. A story line is good for long-term involvement but PvPers can do without and i am positive that good, PvP orientated RPGers can come up with their own story . Give us a good sandbox, a skill driven fighting system, a good crafting and housing system and a good resource system with "choke points". This game is closer to beeing a good PvP sandbox then beeing a good PvE, story driven game?!

1. Not true, see Shadowbane
2. You create a PvP+ server you dont have the problem.

Take all time to develop and test the story line on the PvE server, we dont need it on the PvP+ server. We just need a setting and a sandbox.

Thats the big question.

Where do they differ? A PvP+ server needs less than a PvE server. It doesnt need all this oracle mumbo-jumbo and it doesnt need a story line. It needs a good resource system (partly already in place), a good crafting system (already there), a good combat system (needs improvement), a good housing system (most perfect part of the game) and an immersive world (in construction).

So what would the devs actually need to do extra for an PvP+ server they dont have to do for the PvE server anyway?

Thats ok with me but i dont have the impression that this move turned out to be very successfull... has it? I mean, there had been such a big UO PvP player base and they managed to drive them all off?! An advantage most new MMORPGs dont even have and they just a couple of thousand players just slip?! I wished they had an EA Manager whooping their A**** with a whip. Ok, thats way too mean...

Right, i dont really expect them to put up a PvP+ server. This train is most probably long time gone.

// Armar[/QUOTE]

 

Yeah, thats the point i really not get.... They could have had thousands of UOers and ex UOers basicly "for free", an advantage most startups would kill for, but they sacrifice those on the shrine of "story driven game design".. ?!

( /Armar feels the killer of threads aproaching )

// Armar

 

Same here. With my limited insight as an ex software developer i would say its more easy to clone a PvP+ server. This way you dont have any issues with people exploiting the different game modes or one game mode effecting the others in unforeseen ways. I would say this aproach is a lot less exploit prone.

// Armar

 

Until WE (you, me, everyone) moves passed this line of thinking none of our posts matter. This is exactly what the devs do not want.

We could have 50 pages of posts discussing this very topic. Which has happened already. It will not change things. 1 server, 1 population, 1 player base. It's a business model not a game design. Hope you can see the difference.

 

Yes, did this work out so far? From what i see and read it didnt. Half-Assed aproach. Like "We know we have to make money via the PvErs but we try to keep some PvPler by promising something called "consensual PvP".

You know the reputations EQ had back then in the PvP population, right? Love-Panda central... No PvPler i knew would even had considered this game.

Shadowbane had at least 8-9 servers, mostly overpopulated, all PvP+, some with lore restrictions. Everything had been player driven and it worked. They just never managed to really get it stable, bug free and fully implemented while i had been playing.

// Armar

 

Interesting link. Quotation:

This would bring most SotA PvE'ers onto the barricades. Biggest whine storm ever...

// Armar

 

I just re-checked the "Dev Team" list. There is only one UO developer in there and this guy started with UO2. There is Mr. G, his sidekick "Star Long". The rest of the team, besides some illustrators etc. hasnt any background with UO and most of them dont have any background with MMORPGs ever. Which explains a lot.

Then the technical directors expertise seems totally unrelated to the MMO genre ("He has shipped titles on consoles dating back to the PS1, hand helds, PC games, mobile games, and even a few smart toys) and its not impressing either. And the guy seems to be a laywer... The only UO guys in the game therefore are Starr and Garriot.

// Armar

 

This is the point, I want to have options and only limitations about affecting others.
PvP impair others but PvE don't impair PvP

I let the economy thing aside, because I think if both have the option to use SPO e.g. it's no advantage and no argument.
What I want to have are options! No constraints!!!

This is maybe my casual view and a little bit the easy way, but because of I have a ton of content or grind to do and I'm not gonna rush through it to max something in the first months.
I think it will take me years to Master Moonmagic. To have 100 Atunement.

I think the minor number of PvPers doesnt justify a PvP server, just economics math i guess.
It won't pay, sad but true.
Maybe it were the best solution but seems impossible and as i said nut justifyable atm.

To me it's options. PvP can happen everywhere all the time amongst each other who want to flag.
No need to limit anything to someone who don't want this.
The only one who ask for is the one who want it more challenging and harder to acquire something but
don't grant others to do it more easy and without competition among each other but only against the Environment.

 

I know, still its the only conclusion i can draw from my observations and experiences.

When had this decission been made, why and by whoom?

// Armar

 

Thats an hen and egg issue. Only that with the UO background on the game the PvPers had been "here", hadnt they? Then at least a huge part of the fanbase got chased off?! Its like you have a restaurant and your old customers come in and ask for your old signature dish and you go: "Sorry, management decided to not offer this anymore" while not having a solid, new customer base yet. I would call that a very risky business tactic.

Sure i can understand how someone can reach this business decission: "We need a populated server and why have extra server costs?! Lets go with one server and "consensual PvP"." It does sound good, at an early stage of the game. IMO i did turn out to be a rather short sighted one.

The server and hosting costs itself should be neglectable. But there are some costs managing the game on a second server and the game engine license costs maybe.....

// Armar

 

@Armar of course risky, but maybe the observe the market, ask themself what can be done, what they want etc... and get to this conclusion.
I for myself like it exactly this way!
I want them make everything pvp related just an option and no pvp exclusive content or scenes beside scenes like Rowing Encounters or special sieges while guildwars added to PoTs for example.

Consensual does still sound very good to me.

Only looks Bad for people who want it not consensual at all but more restriktive more flesh but fish

I unterstand that well.
When it comes to roleplay and PoT or guild i like PoTs and guilds that are immersive and strictly RP, but i am in a mixed guild and PoT where we all have options.
I just like options and dont want things to be constraint this or that.

 

Ristra is completely correct.
One shard, united - has been the only choice since inception. Every discussion deviating from that has only been fruitless wishful thinking from players.
Ristra is also completely correct in that this is part of and essential to this specific crowdfunding business model. Since it was always known that it would be a shoestring budget and SCRUM based iterative development there really wasn't any other feasible design choice to make to comply with the list of requirements for the project.

The decision was made before/During the Kickstarter pitch. So that would be Dallas, Richard and Chris.
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/portalarium/shroud-of-the-avatar-forsaken-virtues-0/
https://www.kickstarter.com/project...of-the-avatar-forsaken-virtues-0/posts/427432
https://www.kickstarter.com/project...of-the-avatar-forsaken-virtues-0/posts/429763

Richard in 2013
https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/forum/index.php?threads/some-video-transcriptions.3443/#post-65244


Team back in 2013
https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/?page_id=29385&paged=52


Dead horse:

2013
https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/forum/index.php?threads/the-pvp-thread.1669/
https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/f...oll-pvp-or-pve-which-are-you-unofficial.4120/
https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/forum/index.php?threads/tram-killed-uo-is-tram-back.1759/
https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/f...ll-shroud-of-the-avatar-fail-or-succeed.2645/

2014
https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/forum/index.php?threads/the-pve-pvp-conundrum.11659/
https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/f...l-loot-open-world-pvp-dedicated-server.17976/
https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/f...stretch-goal-to-abandon-dual-scale-map.14057/

2015
https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/forum/index.php?threads/2-servers-2-choices.39154/
https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/forum/index.php?threads/pvp-server-question.39598/

etc

 

@Spoon

Thanks for the insights. Very interesting indeed!

The only kind of conclusion i can come up with is that it probably would had been best to have RG and the whole team locked up in the office and "cut off the internet connection" until the game is ready for Beta-Testing.

On the other side i have to say that the game devs most probably had to wince a couple of times while listening to what RG had envisioned Sometimes it seems he a bit apart with the tech side of game development today. Reminds me of my (non game) software developer days when ive been out with "management" as technical consultant and had to listen to "the management" making promises to the client without considering implications on the software design or if it even would be feasible within given time and budget restrictions

I will follow my dearest PK and Griever enemies now to different online realms to hopefully "kick their butt" but will check here regulary. My six year old daughter likes it (no pun intendet). She asked me to buy a house, loool

// Armar

 

1. Yes, of course. So long as those who are "safe" don't get a free-first-strike on those who aren't.
2. Not sure what you mean by "judging" with PvP. Do you mean enabling others to kill others by their own selfish sense of judgement? I'd say that I kinda like the idea of emergent play that comes along with it but, at the end of the day, I don't really care either way.
3. What feature?

It ultimately makes no real difference. If someone gains something out of being non-PvP and don't interfere with PvP, then why deny them?

Having zones that PvPers can identify as a place to go if they're looking for a fight is essential for a healthy PvP community. The issue right now is those zones are currently PvE zones. As far as I know, Shardfall zones aren't explained by NPCs (so new players don't know they exist) and are littered with mid-to-end game monsters.. which is a deterrent to anyone who wants to PvP.

 

The simple fact is that everyone in almost every single game made is a PvE player (especially SOTA). Most grinding has to be accomplished first in PvE. The best PvP'ers in SOTA are actually the best PvE'ers also, people who have 30+ GM's from PvE already that makes them crush at PvP. To make myself better at PvP, I always have to go grind out PvE. So basically every PvP'er is perfectly happy with any good work on PvE in SOTA (they have to be). PvE in this game has had 3 years to mature to where it is now. With this game being 80% complete in its development, PvP'ers are finally getting their content (which is again built upon PvE).

The only real issue right now is that small yet vocal anti-PvP people who are here doing a great job of PvP'ing on the forums about it.

In that, the PvP'ers are sitting around scratching their head as to why certain people think only the stuff they want to do should be worked on when just about everything except PvP has been worked on over the past 3 years and its PvP's turn.

We have:

Massive PvE experience near complete
Massive crafting system near complete... Armor, weps, carp, alchemy, tailoring, cooking
Massive housing system near complete
Decent story line thats being heavily worked on now.

Basically net 0 PvP....


Whats outta balance here?

Once again I am tempering the response I really would like to give to the anti-PvP forum PvP'ers.

 

I'm against first strikes from a non flagged too.
By judgement I meant to be able to "roleplay" and maybe judge someone who doesn't react in RP or is just annoying you.
PvP in the sense of "War therefore is an act of violence to compel our opponent to fulfill our will."
....as a feature.

Pro meaningfull PvP and special zones aside the main lore and story related scenes to guarantee the pure PvE not to cross any PvP related restrictions.

 

If you RP and I show up unaware, I shouldn't be subject to your harassment even though, from your perspective, I'm the guilty party.

Where would you draw the line?

 

@Gix if you show up unaware and trying to partake or not partake but also not disturb and disrespect the role-playing avatars and or players behind the scene nobody want to rule or judge something, but if someone want to disturb the RP or his understanding of RP or his role forces a conflict it's sometimes nice to be able to roleplay the judgement and PvP.

This is not possible! If someone decides to spam puke emotes while others roleplay or want to dance naked in front of them he cannot be stopped.
People can go away, but everybody can follow if his purpose is just to disturb and annoy.
But FM maybe is a solution if you are not more than 8 people.

The question was: if someone annoys you over and over and you would love it to end it by PvP are you able to handle this, because you cannot force someone into PvP but have live with the annoyance or need to switch over in FM.
So PvP can be an instrument to deal with players with or without RP , but only consensual.
Most PvPers I know wouldn't like it, they prefer FFA PvP everywhere.

 

ok so here we go heres another solution......

Friends Only - /PVE / You and your friends play out the game with no interruption from death by a player, since its ok for NPC monsters and people to kill you, and not real people!

Multiplayer online - /PVP/ If your in a town the guards kill you for PVPing each other since no matter what you are its, bad to murder! Also in this mode there can be bounties placed on others for that!
give a Few places where PVE can play without worry of being pkd. The PVE people can run to a town and hide until the threat leaves. People could have a color code like in some other games! To see whos a killer and who isnt

Now before you complain "its not fair!", thats basically the way it is for PVP right now, we have very few places !!! Compared to PVE! On top of that we have nothing worth going into pvp for anyways. Every add on is created for the RP person and PVE type nothing is for the PVPr (except houses clothes etc,,but most wont pvp in that)! Would be nice to have Specific in PVP mode armor and weapons only, that only work in PVP mode (that may be more of an incentive for others to go into pvp mode that what they have now?, i dont know?)

Of course PVE peeps will cry and complain about that, since now with that scenario, we have taken from them what they take from us all the time.

The only solution that i can see is have 2 separate servers. 2 or more separate characters. then all players PVE and PVP will be happy. (maybe that would bring back more PVPrs that left or bring in some new ones, well never know until they try)