Why full loot? -- (Dev) Replied

@Sirinan:

The manner in which you used the the words was derogatory. There are words with more negative connotations than others. For example, one of the members in this thread said she has children. If these children go to school and say "********" then little will be thought of it. If they go to school and use the words which you used in this forum they will be punished. The word "********" is a light jab, telling someone to shut the **** up is a personal attack. We have all been guilty of swearing, but lets try to refrain from that type of behavior.

Back to the matter at hand, I'm still interested to see how the slider will work. I think full loot should be for everyone who chooses to PvP. But, I can understand how some players, who did not enjoy the early days of Ultima, could disagree with that. If the slider allows you to choose to play with full loot then that's fine. Is the slider something you toggle while online or something that you set in your preferences prior to even initializing the online component of the game, does anyone know?

 

@Ultima Aficionado - he has a good point, and you have a good point. Did he drop the f-bomb because someone said '********'? Maybe he felt he was provoked. But if he drops the f-bomb, does that authorize you to use a derogatory term? Have you never used that term elsewhere?

I suggest you both send an email to FireLotus at Community@www.shroudoftheavatar.com if you want to complain about behavior in the forums. Let her handle it.

 

@UA - you are misusing the term derogatory. Derogatory essentially means insulting someone. I did not use those terms to insult anyone. The 'shut up' incident was to add force to my statement, not to insult Ara.

'********', however, is a derogatory term, as it is used to insult someone, implying, as I said above, that their playstyle is tame, and therefore inferior to that of PvPers.

Again, I have apologized for my profanity, and will endeavor to change my behaviour. I don't see too much of that from PvPers. Indeed, they have so far seemed to enjoy repeating the '********' term back at me to mock me.

 

@Owain:
Thanks, I'll be sure to keep that in mind. Although I do not approve of Sirinan's behavior and personal attacks I will leave that decision up to the person he attacked. I honestly don't consider "********" to be a derogatory term, despite what "urban dictionary" says.

 

@Ultima Aficionado, some people don't consider racial slurs to be derogatory either. That doesn't justify their use. Many people do consider ******** to be derogatory, so is it all that big a sacrifice to be considerate, and say PvE player instead?

 

Well gee, UA, I don't much approve of some of your posts either, but I haven't gone on and on about them. Particularly now that I've apologized *twice* can we move on?

I've explained why '********' is derogatory. It's not that difficult to understand.

 

@Sirinan:

I'll agree to disagree. I do not consider '********' to be derogatory and will not be told that I should/cannot use that word. Racial slurs are an entirely different category and are much more severe. However, this is not the place to discuss such a matter.

I think there have been many reason for full loot and many against it. It certainly adds an element of risk and fun to the game. No other method provides both a consequence for a players' death and provided incentive to a PvPer on the level of full loot. I don't see any potential problem with it, if it is optional then the PvE players cannot complain about it.

 

Does anyone here seriously care if Sirinan is upset over the term '********' or not?

Hands?

____________________________________________________________________________________

"I do, and I have removed the remainder of your text as well, as it was inappropriate and breaks forum rules. Consider this an official warning."
~FireLotus"

 

So much for hoping this might be a nice community to associate with. It's no wonder MMO forums have such a bad rep. For an activity which is by nature supposed to be social, many of you are a distinctly antisocial type.

 

I'm sorry but this is getting to be a bit much in this thread, if someone says they don't like something and you keep doing it you are basically harassing that person. The first steps to stop a confrontation with an adult is to try it at the lowest level...I'm not sure it has worked here.

 

@rune_74. Forum PKs. If you leave, he wins. Argue with the people you can have a polite argument with, and ignore the ones uninterested in an argument. You don't have to converse with everyone in the thread.

 

The fact is I want people to have an intelligent conversation on this subject. Believe me, I've said "go back to WoW" of "just play sims and farmville" many times myself. But the fact is people have different motivations. I want to know the reasons why people want full loot vs. some other kind of reward / token.

Do people care about the harm they inflict on others? Could you just dupe the gear? Could you have gear destruction instead?

Are people just looking for minor rewards to offset durability and / or opportunity cost? Could I give them something else instead? Maybe there's tokens they could turn into a blacksmith to make something. (i.e "armor scraps").

Do I like the challenge and mystery of digging through bags? You never know what you're going to get. Maybe there's a spy vs spy where people carry traps and poison.

Is it really about realism? As I've said, I just don't see a knight stripping off another knight's armor mid battle thinking it will fit. But I'm not everyone. Maybe this feels the most real to people.

Does just just seem "fair"? There's a tit-for-tat element where both sides feel equal risk. (I understand why a bandit what's full loot off a defenseless merchant, that's not the issue.)

 

I find it truly sad that some of the PvP crowd have to act the way they do. There are some quite thoughtful and mature PvP players here, and I respect their opinions and insights. But I have better things to do with my time than to be insulted by those others, and a reinforced belief that I want nothing to do with PvP if it involves putting up with their childishness.

@Owain - Forum PK? How appropriate. Unfortunately, I have no interest in sticking around simply to stop someone else from perceiving that they have 'won'.

 

The realism argument is a tricky one. How much of that is appropriate before it stops being fun, vs how little is needed before breaking immersion?

@PrimeRib, what you said about knights digging through bags in battle struck a chord. Real knights obviously aren't going to do this because they don't have an imaginary inventory to hold another set of armor, nor do they have loot on their mind when fighting. The game is going to allow people wearing plate to put another set of full plate into their backpacks. How do we get that to make sense in the game without battlefield knights just turning into loot bandits?

Someone earlier said something about damaged gear. How about this. In a full loot PvP environment, if you are killed and someone goes to loot your corpse, all of the gear you have equipped could be broken. This cheapens their value and if you really want to keep what they had, you would have to sink money into repairing it. A bunch of soldiers on the field in battle are still going to rummage through packs because this is a game after all, but now they will likely leave all that busted trash armor on your body because it is not worth the weight in the pack for the scrap metal. If they want it, they can take and repair it back to its original condition. I am also thinking anything you do not have equipped does Not break, so that's where the real value might lie. If the dead player makes it back to his corpse and retrieves his stuff, it has only suffered the standard wear and tear of the battle, but is not all instantly busted.

Just because there is full loot shouldn't mean that everyone is automatically picked clean like thugs pulling the Nikes off a gunshot victim. What you take should have value then leave the rest behind. If I am in leather and I kill another guy wearing leather, I'm not going to grab another full set to carry around because it saves me a couple bucks. I'm going to take 1-2 pieces that might be upgrades for me and go repair them, the rest of the scraps are not worth the weight.

I enjoy brainstorming random suggestions all the time if anyone hasn't noticed.

 

@Primerib

"Do people care about the harm they inflict on others?"

Am I just out to ruin some one's day? No, of course not but if people choose to play a game with player versus player combat they should not be the least bit surprised when they get attacked. Loot provides a motivation for the attack in the first place beyond simple acts of random violence.

"Could you just dupe the gear?"

That would completely mess up the economy and lead to massive exploitation.

"Could you have gear destruction instead?"

No. That punishes the victim but gives no motivation for the victor. If I got nothing out of a battle accept the knowledge that I partially or completely destroyed some one elses gear than I and every other PK would come out looking like complete jerks.

"Are people just looking for minor rewards to offset durability and / or opportunity cost? Could I give them something else instead? Maybe there?s tokens they could turn into a blacksmith to make something. (i.e ?armor scraps?)."

Maybe. Not as an alternative to full-loot but as a currency that might convince an enemy combatant to spare your life.

"Is it really about realism?"

Not really. For me it is about risk versus reward, consequences, having a reason to actually try to stay alive, etc. In my experience Ultima Online was the only fantasy based MMO I played where you had good reason to fear or at least be wary of your fellow gamer. I haven't played any particular MMO for more than a month or two in years because no matter how many I try none of them come anywhere close to recreating the experience I had in UO.

I don't have as much free time as I used to but I still play UO:2A on one of the free servers from time to time. It is the only MMO worth a damn.

 

If I see one more personal attack in this thread, I am closing it. I have already had to go back and delete way too many posts that I consider over the line. Please remember the FIRST forum rule:

Speak with Virtue:

We are a community with many voices, but remember to watch thy tongue when it comes to profanity, racism, or derogatory attacks on other people and/or their ideas. Speak responsibly and post responsibly or ye will find thyself banned.

Also, the derogatory use of the word "********" stops here and now.

 

Yes. It is a touchy topic, but we should still try to act according to the virtues. I am sorry if i went too far and insulted someone, or if my words were ill chosen.

 

Well to me it comes down to this. How many people do you want PVPing? Because it is a choice.

Full loot, not many people are going to want to risk losing cool stuff or stuff they took a long time making/acquiring so one of 2 things will happen.

A) Person chooses PVP wearing only stuff they don't mind losing and stuff that isn't worth much.
B) People just choose not to PVP as it is not worth losing what you worked so hard to get.

So I do a PVP quest. I go drop off my good gear and swap out with something I don't mind losing or just go naked. You kill me....I suffer the penalty but lose nothing gear or coin-wise and you get nothing loot wise. Congratulations.

Now before you go crazy, thats just an example.

 

For those of you who watched the hangout they made it pretty clear that those of us interested in playing pvp will be able to do so without interfering with and/or interfering with PvE players. As Chris stated, it will for all intensive purposes seem like an open-PvP world to us. I think it is a pretty small leap from there to conclude that full looting will be a viable option.

It will not be forced upon players who are not interested in that type of game play but I have no doubt that it will prove quite popular, especially with old UO players.

@Karsh I see that potentially happening during those quests Richard is talking about where PvE players are coaxed into doing a PvP oriented quest but those are not really the players I suspect many people will be interested in.

In a past hangout Chris mentioned player guilds that are always flagged for pvp. If you belong to one of those guilds you either never wear your armor or accept that you are probably going to lose it at some point.

 

@Karsh Regarding point B) I think that is the big question on every bodies mind. Are we going to have weapons and armor that we had to work so hard to obtain that we simply cannot risk losing it? I certainly hope not.

Collecting unique and expensive items worked in games like Everquest and WoW because your items were always safe. UO didn't take that approach. The world was full of mostly generic items that could be replaced with minimal effort. You could die wearing a full set of plate armor and it wouldn't take you a week or longer to get another.