Why are NPC Guards so important? I'll tell you.

EDIT: I'm not suggesting that PVP stop being consensual. What I'm saying that is once you put a PVP flag on, this is how it should operate. No one should be forced to choose between no pvp and an immediate drop into 20 foot waters. That's just going to result in the largest portion of our player base never or rarely PVPing. But if you give people that flag for pvp a layered risk based approach where they can pick and choose their own comfort level, you'll get the maximum amount of people flagging for pvp and they'll enjoy it.

@Lord British
@DarkStarr
@Chris
@Berek
@TheDevTeamAtLarge

A lot of people seem to think PVP is a switch that is either supposed to be turned on full or not at all. Those people are wrong.

Just as you would never teach people how to swim in a pool by throwing them in the 20 foot deep area, you would never expect them to drown in the waters of Deep Ravenswood being repeatedly spawn camped by multiple groups of people locked into their own arena death match battle with morality. Spoiler alert, morality loses this one.

It doesn't matter that you give someone a 25% experience bonus or a 75% experience bonus, if they're not ready to swim in that side of the pool they're going to drown. Which is why a layered approach to risk and reward is so important in PVP.

Layer 1, the shallow end of the pool: This part of the pool is about two feet deep. Highly unlikely to lose a life or be stolen from here, but it's possible if you're AFK or you just started playing a few days ago and have no concept of what's going on. This is where you really need to be tricked by other players to get killed.

Examples of this would be inside a player owned home, the walls protect the player from ranged attacks, and the doors are capable of being closed and locked. Only someone that leaves their doors open or isn't paying attention to people that follow them inside the home before the doors are locked can get in. (maybe later, when there's a picked lock skill, this area gets more dynamic in PVP POTs and zones like Blood Bay, but not now)

This provides all players with an area where they can take a "time out" and not be on high alert 24/7. This allows players to use assets like crafting stations, books, home decorations, and actually sit down and talk with "friends" that hopefully will not try to kill or steal from them (even though they can if they so desire).

This is where new players and risk adverse players go, but also hardcore PVP veterans after they've been out swimming the length of the pool. It's a place to relax, reflect, and remember battles. It's a place to socialize and meet up with other people that again, are hopefully not always trying to kill or steal from you (even though they can if they so desire).

Layer 2, the intermediate area of the pool: This part of the pool may vary between 4 to 6 feet deep depending on where you are. It's much easier to get killed or stolen from here, but players are still able to find hand holds and support that keeps them afloat if they require it. For example, this area might contain an NPC or Player Owned Town that has NPC Guards. The guards don't prevent players from being killed or stolen from, but they help quite a bit. NPC Guards attack on aggressive behavior and so players that attack first are seen as the target. Likewise players that attempt to steal from other players are automatically a target.

And because the players in this area are counting on NPC Guards to keep them afloat, they need to be very effective at killing aggressive players. This allows solo players to have opportunities to escape larger groups of aggressive players. It allows spawn points to be more protected. It makes social areas (like banks and crafting pavilions) not only safer but also useful.

This is the area where players stretch out and learn to swim. This is the area where more meaningful pvp has an opportunity to begin. Where players of the same intermediate skill level can meet up and join to accomplish a common goal (usually to go kill an annoying pest, but sometimes to go into the deep waters together for greater protection).

Players in this area need to stay alert and be careful not to venture too far away from the guarded areas. Just like in a pool, these areas need to be clearly marked so that players do not fall into an area of the pool they're unprepared for and drown. Newer players can test the waters here at their own risk.

Layer 3, the experienced area of the pool: This is the 8 to 12 foot area of the pool. No one is high diving into this area, and if you're new to swimming you would want to stay as far away from this place as possible because it would be easy to sink to the bottom and drown.

There's no player housing here. There's no NPC Guards. But the scenes and mechanics are still designed to support less spawn camping and repetitive violence. Because no one goes to the experienced area of the pool for the express purpose of drowning. No one. So our goal here should be to reduce drowning victims even though they're experienced swimmers. That means having random spawn points. It means that once you kill someone they shouldn't reappear 5 seconds later to fight you again. It means that there has to be a penalty in death that costs more than just a handful of gold. (Body Part Trophies should never be part of the ransom system)

This is where players go when they're either looking for a fight or they're looking for adventure. The scenes should be designed to support both simultaneously. For example, as we rethink control points, this is a great opportunity to also rethink grouping. Why would anyone choose to fight a pvp battle where it was 1 vs. 8? They wouldn't. Which is why FPS games don't offer modes like that. It's unfair, it's unfun, and it's the type of player experience that makes someone rethink why they're flagged for pvp to begin with.

So why not offer different paths through a control point that ensure that you're not going to be outnumbered in pvp? Why not offer a "snake path" that can only support a 1v1 pvp encounter? We have selective multiplayer, why not use it to help pvp be more meaningful?

Layer 4, the deep end of the pool: Just as pools have a 20 foot deep end, so does pvp. But just like at a pool, there's a reason to have a deep end, it's where players go to jump off the high dive and they need that extra room so they don't hit the bottom of the pool and die.

Well in pvp the deep end is where guilds fight for conquest. This is where (participating) player towns would win or lose things of value. This is where (participating) players might win or lose special items that can be stolen from their homes. This is where you can out number you opponents and it's just the way it goes. These are special areas in the game like Shardfalls or Ruins where might makes right. There are no NPC guards or player housing, and although there are still mechanics in place to help prevent spawn camping and repetitive fights with the person you just killed 5 seconds ago, these are the most dangerous areas in the game. They're clearly marked and there's no way for someone to accidentally fall in. You have to want to be here.

With all of these layers, the more risk you take the more reward you should have the opportunity to receive.[/USER]

 

I learned how to swim in the ocean... not for nothing, but pools are boring; I'd much rather dive a reef.

 

*Calls dad and questions why he threw him in the 20 foot side of the pool to teach him how to swim in RL.*

Your ideas are not necessarily bad, but only if this were a full-on PvP game. For example, your Level 1 basically is a "home base" and sounds like that's the only safe place. Whereas the way SotA plays now it is consensual PvP only. It seems your entire premise is switching the base game into something that it is not. And I wonder why someone would advocate this at such a late stage in the development cycle?

I really thought you had something with the "layered" approach to PvP - but not if we have to fundamentally change the game as it is now. There has to be a way to get some type of layered approach in the future that will stick to the consensual part of PvP and not break the game (or the forums).

 

I'm not in any way advocating that the game stop having 100% consensual pvp. What I'm saying that is once you put a PVP flag on, this is how it should operate. No one should be forced to choose between no pvp and an immediate drop into 20 foot waters. That's just going to result in the largest portion of our player base never or rarely PVPing. But if you give people that flag for pvp a layered risk based approach where they can pick and choose their own comfort level, you'll get the maximum amount of people flagging for pvp and they'll enjoy it.

 

PVP yes or not NOW is just a question of XP GAIN and money.

1) i need to increase level to reach some PK/ORDER level ad try to resist (or attack) to it? i need to fight in SINGLE MODE to gain maximum pool from enemies.

2) i need money? i need to fight scheletons in SINGLE MODE to retrieve maximum money.

for the MULTIPLAYER choice:

1) for newbies on a guild to increase level rapidly

2) to kill a BOSS

other players that play on multiplayer mode probably love quests/wears/notoriety/social... (but playing on multiplayer increase character skills too slowly... and make minerals/cotton very hard to find)

i played multiplayer for 2 years... and when RELEASE started.. i started also to play on SINGLE MODE to speed up player skills and money.
i can start playing multiplayer again... when single mode disappear.
and when i forced to play multiplayer

i can choice PVP because i can talk with other players and make parties
i don't need EXTRA POOL % to choice PVP .. just some friend to make a party. (on europe is not easy to have online friends at every hour) or Guards protection on cities like Ultima Online (again this name?) and on all starting point of PVE scenes.

 

This reminds me of UO the town guards. This type of thing would make sense for PVP towns and owners can opt to add in these guards. I am thinking these guards can have a certain distance they can patrol and or kill players.

Like UO if you just stepped outside the city, you could be killed. So for example the pvp town can have a town center where the bank, crafting stations and vendors are. This area Baron places a NPC out of his bank. Right clicks the patrol option and the guards starts doing his thing.

I think this idea will entire more towns to go PVP. For a role player like myself, this is just sexy. If our guild were more PVP inclined I would consider Serenite to be a pvp town if we can have NPC guards. The cool thing about it is the guards are totally optional. Some people want a wild wild west, some people want certain areas to be safe like town centers.

Also the town owner can put a guard in the nobles area, and perhaps the row houses have a guard close by but not exactly close enough for most cases. Adding a bit of realism where the richer folk can afford to hire guards and the poor folk get the **** end of the stick. I think for the hardcore RPers it opens some new doors.

 

I thought the whole concept of players enforcing justice on thieves in town were due to inability/pain in the ass to code the guards to attack players that have the "flag" so either stealing from an npc merchant or attacking someone should throw up a flag of some sorts to provoke the npc guards. I guess what im saying is they have already said it cant/wont be done for 1, they cant verywell back track and change their stance now..

 

I'm not sure that's worded in the best light, but I think I understand what you're saying.

There's no reason that guards can't be both "hired" for in-game gold and purchased in the add-on store. It also stands to reason that in any town the areas most traveled and most populated would have more guards than those areas that have little to no traffic. This gives both a "realistic" feel to the simulation, and also provides smaller pockets of space for people to lure people into the shadows where the guards can't help them.

I'm quite fond of this picture, which I think gives a good representation of what we should strive for in all of our towns (for those people that choose to flag for pvp):

 

Actually, I remember them saying that NPC guards would likely be something that would happen soon after they had new NPC models and new clothes for theme to wear. It was my expectation we'd already have them in game by now, but it looks like that got pushed past Q1.

I definitely expect NPC guards to be working before launch. It would be very disappointing if this wasn't the case.

 

I hope the devs read this post. Problem is alot of people dont like pvp but the exact reason of this post is exactly that.

Give people some safe zones so they arent so reluctant to flag.

 

@Baron Drocis Fondorlatos you want to rule and limit PvPers who always talk UO, Open, Loot Blabla.
They won't accept any restrictions and they will as long as it is not their "spiritual successor" aka open and full loot PvP complain about that PvP has no meaning.
What you and maybe others and me think of a meaning is not what they think of a meaning.
They want to show you and all the others how good they are and how much better than you.

Kinkara, Envy, Duke Avery and sometimes Mr.Blight who has sometimes moderate views won't be satisfied by any PvP restrictions.
They or we can invent, do compromises and a lot more, if they cannot do their PvP Business unlimited they won't satisfied.

To me it's simple. I wait if I can catch up one time, if yes, great, let's PvP.
If not:
A ) PvP is an option and it never prevents me to see, get, do anything of the content except the pure PvP content, what has no extras beside PvP itself (already posted about pristine large croc heads are PvP only).
B ) special loot, reward, scenes , quests force you into PvP - sell everything, quit game, as it is only for powergameds and does to much limitations to casuals.

If PvP tends to become elite content which is only achievable if you spent 10hrs a day grinding and this is vital to see, get, enjoy a lot of content
This game isn't for me as I am not elite, have not much time etc...

Believe me, the PvPers and the "spiritual sucdessor" people!E will never stop complaining until they get UO 3.0

 

How much you're wrong about this really depends on what you mean by "full". A lot of us love to play on PvP servers in MMOs; if that's not a "on switch", I don't know what is.

Some people prefer that because the game then clearly defines who your potential enemies are. Knowing who your enemies are (even if you're constantly surrounded by them) is more relaxing than wondering if a potential threat is going to flag or not.

Not that what you're proposing is a bad concept overall, but what I'm getting out of reading it is that people are segregated based on how much "PvP" they're willing to accept. Meaning, those who want to do "full PvP" or whatever are limited to a few areas.

Unlike World of Warcraft, SotA's level progression is scattered all over the world. It means that if I want to PvP, I have to hunt down the spot I want for it. That's bad. I have to accept that I'll be fighting against people who aren't equal to my prowess (both stronger and weaker) but then the game has to double its efforts to make it easier for me to enjoy the experience; you can't just slap PvP with arbitrary rules and call it a day.

PvP should be possible everywhere for everyone so long as everybody understands that they're potential targets.

What SotA really needs is:

• Factions (so that complete strangers can find camaraderie and help each other out). Some of us couldn't give a rat's tail about guild drama and would rather solo.
• PvP goals that go beyond earning the ability to gather crafting materials.
• A PvP zone (an arena maybe?) near newbie areas... so that they can participate as early as possible.
• Change the rules of PvP loot (or completely change on how combat works), so that more people (including the newbies) are willing to participate... and eliminate the entry barrier of PvP.
• Clear indications of what you may lose and what you may gain out of participating in PvP.
• Arenas should have no penalty to losing and it should be clearly stated. Winning matches should earn gold and XP for those who want to be gladiators. Not per kill.
• Clear indications as to where the PvP zones are from a distance (instead of merely getting a prompt when entering the zone). On the overworld as well as within the scene itself.
• Clear indications as to where the arenas are from a distance. On the overworld as well as within the scene itself. Why are arenas hidden in basements and are not in giant Colosseums where the structure itself would be visible from anywhere in the city?
• Non-PvP players should never be able to attack PvP players.

 

probably the SOTA multiplayer engine is very buggy (i see that a lot of times in friend mode....players positioned in wrong places.... lags.... the "master of scene" workaround.... chain lighting coming from nowhere -- healing rays same...) .. developers don't want (for NOW) to expose these issues .. and probably (if they read this post... that is the hard part) they just don't change anything...

i can just say ... that the multiplayer issues are on FAST PVE fighting zones and a large cities (lag.. crashes)...

create a new type of small cities (1/4 of size) ... like some social places.. (without players's houses to remove lag) with any type of NPC vendor.. a public vendor... and a public arena to play-music / fight / play-gustball and force these zones only multiplayer... and start from here to test massive multiplayer... and next (as a goal) the introduction of guards.

who don't want multiplayer or pvp have just to do not visit the new cities (a name for the first city? Old Britain)

 

This game was never intended to be a repeat performance of the historic levels of greifing and other bad behavior during the early days of UO. It doesn't matter what some people say or want, that's just not important to this conversation.

What is important is trying to create meaningful pvp by having a population that can support it, and history is on our side there; both long term and recent. PVP will never succeed if there are virtually no people playing it. The OP explains why that's less likely to happen if your only options are the extreme 20 foot deep end of the pool or not swimming in the water at all. It's a very simple concept that I hope the developers read and talk about, but also that they design their pvp system around.

 

The reality is that 20 foot depth should only be for diving. (if you're following along from the OP)

There's no need for brand new players that are just trying out pvp flagging to jump into the end of the pool where they can't swim, we know they can't swim, and instead of preparing them for that we're just standing around watching (or worse, laughing). You don't build a successful game doing that, people quit and go play other games.

Now if you're saying some of the hardcore players that just want to attack people anywhere in the game and never have restrictions of any kind might be unhappy with that? I don't really know why anyone should care. Afterall, I have yet to meet a single person that ever said "I really want to go into the deep end of the pool first, because I just love drowning". That's just not how human beings work. They don't play games because they like losing. They quit games because they lose all the time and it's frustrating. We don't want people to quit pvp, we want them to play to the point where they're most comfortable.

That provides the game with MORE people in pvp, not less. That's the way to go. The rewards for the deep end of the pool need to be tempting though, so eventually people find out what they like and what they don't like. But if we're just going to say all pvp is a one size fits all model, we then we're going to have a very sizable portion of our player base that simply says "no thanks".

 

PVP mode shouldn't be full on murder mode, imo. I don't see the devs taking the advice in this thread either through. It seems like like their idea of PVP is ganking. Guards would limit ganking, therefore hurt their idea of PVP.

 

Meaningful PVP is different for everyone.

That said, there are factions coming. Virtue and Anti-Virtue factions are already (sort of) a thing... just put on a virtue cloak and you'll know pretty fast if you're good or bad.

Will factions have a hook into PVP? I have no idea - but I hope so.

Will NPC guards ever be a thing for PVP in housing scenes? I hope so, but I also remembering hearing from the devs that it wasn't possible because of technical limiters... that was talked about during a recent livestream. I remember the conversation and thinking - just get rid of all those stupid and useless cats and turn them into people - they're already annoying NPC guards. haha

Players can make PVP meaningful too - there just aren't enough players working together for PVP. During R35 and R36 though, it was a lot of fun. There was always a group of players to fall in with - and there was always a nefarious group or solo player out there trying to get the drop on us. It was a lot of fun - I actually miss it.

I think if people are waiting for meaningful PVP before they flag - they'll never flag and we'll never get anything more than what we have. The devs can't tweak or tune or balance or create anything for PVP if no one is doing it. People that want PVP need to flag for PVP and be a part of Early Access. Which is one of the biggest reasons I'm excited for Blood Bay. I'll definitely be establishing a permanent residence there... can't wait!

 

I think to this point the state of PVP has been more about their idea of what systems needed to be added first. It's a little confusing sometimes because I've heard them say things like PVP is the most complicated part of all this because there are so many use cases involved. But then I've also heard them make comments over the years where they seemed to think PVP was the last thing that needed to go in because no other system was dependent on it. So I think they approach PVP from an almost clinical perspective sometimes that doesn't always lend itself well to a game that is persistent like ours.

I don't believe they think meaningful pvp is ganking. I think that some of the people in our forums do.

 

You assume that every new player has the same level of experience in PvP.

If someone's a veteran PvPer and he's okay with full loot and all the nasty "anti-newbie" features you might think of, that person should still be able to easily find the areas where they can PvP without having the need to go to a kiddy pool. The key thing here is "finding the areas".

If, for example, we were to structure PvP so that arenas had no death penalties, were near newbie areas and were easier to find (without looking at some wiki), you'd have your kiddy pool without pushing experienced PvPers away. Heck, the experienced PvPers might even use the arenas as a platform to experiment with different builds.

The rest of the world can still be a wild west without different rulesets each time you change zones. So I don't believe NPC guards to be significant in this equation... as a matter of fact, I'd argue that NPC guards are the anti-thesis to PvP.

Most game developers don't seem to understand the importance of designing their PvE encounters AFTER they balance the PvP.

 

No I'm really not making that assumption at all.

But because we don't know who's who, and because frankly I personally have no interest in PVP being only a 20 foot deep area because I think that's more like an FPS than it is a roleplaying game, the added structure is very important. Sometimes I just don't feel like being as large of a target, and of course there are people that will say "well then just don't flag". Which is my entire point. If you have a player base that varies in their appetite for PVP (often times day to day or even hour by hour) and your choice is only to have a gankfest in all areas or no pvp at all...what do you think the majority of the population is going to prefer?

The PVP community has been their own worst enemy for the last 20 years trying to resurrect "old UO" as if any sane developer would even be interested in that. Trammel didn't kill UO, the PVP community did, and they continue to do the same thing over and over again, demand that they be given "player freedom" without any type of self awareness that no one is standing in line to be sheep for the slaughter. You have to allow players to find their own level of comfort with PVP, and if you don't give them any options well then they'll largely ignore PVP or they'll leave your game outright.

I'm not saying anywhere in the OP that people who want full on PVP around the clock can't look for it all over the world. I'm just saying that the people that really want to get after weaker players (the new people and the AFK players) are going to be prevented from that. It's just going to be a challenge.

I agree, and by most I would say ALL. The entire reason I wanted PVP to begin development so early for SOTA was precisely so we didn't end up in this mess where the game is made for PVE but we're trying to slap on a PVP function. It can still be accomplished but I think it's going to be a lot more work and we needlessly shot ourselves in the foot by not focusing on PVP early, balancing it, and then adding in core PVE functionality that doesn't screw up the balance we created for PVP. Instead of that what we did was push PVP out in Release 9 and then largely ignore it until Release 37.