Why are NPC Guards so important? I'll tell you.

You specifically talked about having different zones segregated by arbitrary "layers"; each having their own rule-set. The trick is to not have players hunt those zones down.

Which is why I propose we focus our efforts on establishing a clearer distinction between arenas and world PvP. We need the game to fully communicate to the players:

• that arenas exists in the first place.
• where each PvP-exclusive zones are.

Then, all the devs would need to do (bare minimum) is make sure there are plenty of both around the world. Preferably some near the starter areas... like an arena in Soltown and a PvP exclusive zone between it and Eastern Perennial Trail.

Heck, in most cases, I bet new players don't even know that they can flag PvP at all. Where you an I differ is in the implementation: I say no to arbitrary rules.

K.I.S.S.

 

What's an example of an arbitrary rule I proposed? I gave a purpose for everything in the OP.

 

your OP makes it look like you want PVP to become this:



I don't believe PVP needs rules, but it does need consequences and a hook into the world of SotA that gives it a reason for being. I certainly don't believe PVP needs layered protection for players - tournament circuits can do that on their own - Open PVP needs choice/consequence mechanics for virtue and anti-virtue PVP. And PVP most definitely does not need training wheels - possibly a community initiative like the Hospitalers (but for PVP) - and it desperately needs balance that will only be provided by integrating it into the greater game of SotA. I don't think risk/reward will ever trump choice/consequence though.

Guards that can respond to PVP assaults would be really awesome and would create a new world for PVP - but it shouldn't be expected to be a solves all problems mechanic either. I dunno - I'm just excited for Blood Bay and can't wait to see what comes of it - I really hope I'm not alone there.... although, that would be pretty kick ass - to be the sole inhabitant of the coolest housing scene in the game.

 

Well, your reply make it seem to me like you want this...

Perhaps there's a middle ground? Or perhaps there's not.

I have that distinction in Rats Nest already.

 

When something is arbitrary, it isn't necessarily because it has no purpose... but that the purpose itself is established on a whim.

• Why would the rules change from a player house to a city? Shouldn't the rules be consistent throughout the entire game?
• Why are there 4 "layers"? Why not 3 or 2? 5, 10, 30? Or any at all?
• Why are "layers" 3 and 4 not have player housing or NPC guards? Why isn't it exclusive to "layer" 4?
• Why are both player housing and NPC guards features "bundled" together?
• Why are Shardfalls categorized as a "layer" 4? Why can't they be in any of the other "layers"?
• Why are NPCs part of the equation when we're discussing about PvP?

Do you really expect players to keep track of all this? If I PvP because I want to PvP, where do I go? I feel like I'd get whip-lashed if I travel from zone to zone a lot.

You point to Unreal Tournament as something "hardcore" and/or intimidating to dive into but, I'll have you know, Unreal Tournament is actually super easy to get into; especially in comparison to SotA.

• Quick.
• No penalties.
• Everyone has equal access to the same weapons.
• Simple objectives.

Shroud of the Avatar's PvP:

• Lose gold and/or items on death.
• Need equipment/reagent maintenance.
• (Currently) need specific skills to compete.
• Need to look for other players in different zones.
• Overlaps with PvE.
• Un-intuitive equipment stats.
• No objectives.

On top of that you have a skill (Pickpocket) that is specifically designed for PvP and yet people complain because they're victims of it... and they're not necessarily wrong either; the results contradicts the point of PvP. You're looting from them the resources they need to keep fighting/playing.

If you want to lower the entry barrier and make it so that PvP is more approachable, you got to make it simple first.

 

Wow, I'd say the OP is anything BUT on a whim. But let's answer you questions.

Right, I see your point now. If someone could jump off a stool and survive, why can't they jump off a cliff and survive? If someone can run in dirt at one speed, why can't they run in mud at the same speed?

There really should be no environmental impact of anything in the world. Walls? Why would home walls keep people from entering? Why would cities have guards to protect people? Why doesn't the game just stay consistent and work completely the same from one area to the next?

Great point! </sarcasm off>

No, I don't expect anyone but the devs to keep track of it. It's a design concept. If it's working properly the players will never think about any of it. Especially the ones that don't get the point.

You missed the point entirely.

SOTA is a roleplaying game. Unreal Tournament is an FPS. Just like I wouldn't expect to play Unreal and participate in a lot of roleplaying, I don't understand why people play SOTA and expect to ignore it. The game we're building here is supposed to support roleplaying, not make it impossible. That's what I was saying.

I'm not sure what you're saying here. But I'm beginning to think that you're idea of what pvp is and isn't is very different than mine. The point of meaningful PVP is to be more than just an arena death match. There really should be "reasons" for why you're fighting people and pickpocketing can provide those reasons in spades, which is why I like that skill being in the game. However some people abuse it to the point it becomes very annoying and it doesn't foster roleplaying, it just creates frustration. Because we can't count on players to regulate themselves, we need things like NPC Guards that will do it for them.

I think the OP is very simple. What's difficult about any of it? It's intuitive for players. To a person I'm sure they would think that locked doors would keep people out. To a person I think they'd believe walls would be viable tools to keep people out. To a person I believe they would expect guards in cities to stop random violence from being the norm. The people making this complicated are the ones that want all of human existence to stop working the way it does and just allow people to get killed repeatedly without any form of justice or accountability.

Spoiler, this isn't a roleplaying game. It's a nightmare. (a funny nightmare, but a game no one wants to play)

 

@Baron Drocis Fondorlatos It's a roleplaying game? Really? Oh by all means, then, lets throw any sensibility about playing a decent video game out the window! /sarcasm

You basically guarantee that the players will need to be aware of which zone they're in, which "layer" they're in and remember those rules in order to do anything at all.

So no, it's anything BUT intuitive.

The point of PvP is to enable players to focus on playing against one another. PvP itself should be perpetual. The "reason" why one fights is just icing on the cake. I want the icing as much as the next guy but that's not why people aren't PvPing. People don't PvP because the act of PvPing progressively prevents you from PvPing.

I USE Pickpocket in the game and even I can see that it's not healthy for PvP. Not because of the act itself (and I want it to stay in the game), but because of the effect it has on the one who's trying to participate in PvP in the first place. On top of that, I'm looting crap I don't care about.

You want to talk about role-playing game? Why the hell can I not pickpocket NPCs?

It isn't that much different, we both want a way to introduce players to PvP and keep the veterans interested. What we disagree on is on how to do it.

I want to focus the attention of new players on arenas because the concept itself suggests safe and fair play while leaving the wild west of open PvP as is it with PvP specific zones closer to starter towns. This stuff already exists in the game, now it just needs to be brought to the forefront of the player-base. Make it obvious. Adjust the rules behind PvP looting and you got yourself a good foundation for all the "reasons" to fight as you want.

You want to control what one can and can't do by specifically changing the rules of a given area in the hope that if people feel safe in certain areas, they might be more inclined to be targets. Somehow, you believe that this won't confuse the begeezus out of new players.

If you're interested in PvP but you don't want to be constantly flagged for PVP, the game already supports your needs... it's just sloppy about it. That's the whole point why some zones are PvP exclusive.

 

I don't want to do that. I think you're very confused about what the OP says.

The "layers" are conceptual. There are very few rules up there at all.

Here's one rule. If you lock your doors people can get into your home. Why would that be confusing? Why would that make the game less fun? Don't you think most players would enjoy having the option to take a break in their own home? If you don't want to do that, just leave your doors unlocked! What exactly about that rule would impact PVP negatively?

 

@Baron Drocis Fondorlatos Your OP obviously failed to communicate your idea(s).

Explain to me how the idea you're proposing works any differently than what the game is already doing. Explain to me what happens when... don't talk about results and avoid analogies. Bullet points would be preferable.

I'm asking because, best case scenario: we can continue to elaborate/clarify the idea. Worse case scenario: one of us is going to learn something.

 

Just throwing this out for the conversation concerning locked doors - they are not intended to provide total security when locked, and that's by design - or so goes the tooltip.

 

According to that tooltip, that's only if the door is opened, not if it's locked.

 

This concept allows players that are flagged for pvp to use crafting stations and read books (for example) without being completely vulnerable to any player that walks by.

 

That's only if the door is open, and it's also not the "design" or intent of the system, per our other conversations.

 

There are many ways into locked homes - and the tooltip offers a warning/disclaimer. Take it or leave it.

 

I didn't ask for the results, I asked how it works.

Actually reading the tooltip is word-for-word contradictory to itself. It specifically states "blocked from entering" so if people find ways to ENTER the house (regardless of their means), then the function obviously doesn't block people from entering.

 

If your answer is going to be "well then you can just unflag" please note that's not acceptable.

Here, I'll give you a good example. I live in a PVP town, I'd also like to flag for pvp wherever I go.

But if I stop to read a book or use a crafting station anywhere but my basement, I can be attacked or stolen from. Even in my own home. Now if NPC guards made that less likely, or if walls and locked doors actually did something, then I'd be able to do other things that I like to do and still be flagged for pvp.

 

What i've said @Baron Drocis Fondorlatos

What's wrong with this, looks like they have fun
But I see your point very well, it's not dirty enough, less blood and such, just too much hello kitty fun stuff.

But in the first place those PvPers , even if they don't hate roleplay as it was already stated
they never RP before PvP or give PVP a "roleplay" meaning.
Except the Roleplay that comes with char development min max, efficiency thing.
Example: Does a serious role-playing character , let's say a Moonmage go for Sun Magic, even if just for Int Buff?
At this point I have to state I am not serious, I do compromises
But if you seriously want to compete in PvP you mustn't care about things like that.
Roleplayers who seriously play their role and self-restrict themself never can be competetive.
You can of course find compromises or go for an Archmage who's an universal Magic user...
Therefore PvP already need to do compromises for RP somehow. But also if you want "perfect" in PvE of course.

I'm going to soften my self-chosen restrictions, because it's too hard to play the game with let's say only 3 Schools of Magic avoiding diametral
schools, although the lift of the limitations and negative effects.

See on top, it's what I said before.

Good idea get rid of Thief's are PvP , let them steal from NPCs and lockpick some NPC Castles.

As the Statement like : It's possible , so it's intended by the devs.
Corpse camping, Spawncamping, exploiting, abusing... It's all possible, and they call it "tactics".
If you do not use it, you are just a bad PvPer, playing not seriuosly.
PvPers play war for fun, but of course seriously. War isn't for fun , war and competition is serious business, even in games.
They loose of course too and maybe accept a hard way to get once where they want to go.
Powerfull chars that can compete with others to win.
Of course it's all about to win and the other one too loose.
Competition is always about winning and loosing.
Sport events are (or should) be always fair and have referees. Chess is rather balanced.
But MMORPGs ??? PvP in MMORPGs just provide the players who play a lot more might over others and more wins than losses.
What the PvPers are comp!Aiming about is that there are less victims sorry errrh i mean opponents and have a fair fight. Really? Then why they don't go for fair fights and play PvP in an MMORPG what have levels and where it is impossible to have a balanced fight.
Okay not impossible, but rather impossible.
No , can't tell me lies , it's just about overwhelming others .
What is the slang 'owned' and there are other disrespecting words.
But exactly therefrom , the serious business of PvP is what them make having fun.
Completely different to cooperative players.
PvE is just a bad design to develop for them. Grind is already said is a "necessary evil".
We already have the different mindset discussion.
And I already asked if PvPers here really can handle "consensual".
Pure PvPers cannot, they will always be disappointed!!!

And I promise you there will be a lot of complaining when bloodbay doesn't offer what they want.
And I guess it won't.

You cannot rule war! So you cannot rule PvP for the ones who like to play war!
In fact if opponents are equal FFA PvP is very cool.

I wait for the MMORPG WITHOUT LEVELS!
Where you choose from skills when creating g a character and then go into Endcontent, PvE, PvP ,
roleplaying etc. from the start. No developing, everybody can build a character, they are balanced like in a good moba and then they can play in the sandbox.
The only thing what counts is playerskill!

In MMORPGs its just impossible to balance it and there will ever be powergamers who prevent normal and casual gamers to partake of they can loose what is hard to earn.
Powergamers of cause don't loose anything , the can easily replace anything, they use and max all the necessary skills
With a system of limitless skills they are king of the hill forever.

Maybe PvP is and will be part of the game, but it will always be something for a minority of players!
Expect not to get a PvP game or significant changes to PvP . They may create some PvP content and
Give it some meaning and goals to go for, but because the majority favors PvE, Decorating and maybe some Roleplaying
The Devs won't put more work into PvP and delay content to the majority or create things around PvP what annoys PvE and maybe Roleplayers.

I am really for FFA PvP full loot PvP, if I have the time to prepare my char end be competetive and this doesn't mean I have to grind 3 month 24/7

And because SotA is a game where you have to grind a lot to become competetive and there's no end to it I think PvP will last for powergamers
Who need some fun beside of the necessary evil grind they do 24/7 , 365d

Sorry, I don't want to sound accusing someone, but it's so obviously that "we" will never come to a compromise.

You can create the best rules and limitations or restrictions around PvP to get more people interested in, but
as long as there isnt any balance possible and no skill cap and of course no meaning in the sense of a meaning relying to lore and the right risk and reward there will always just be pro PvPers rule the Rest.
And exactly this gets boring over the time and PvP will die.

 

Why couldn't your thread be about enabling player houses to be sanctuaries or being immune to attacks while crafting instead of all of this "two feet deep" thing about layers? Not that I'd necessarily agree to these but why do the roundabout way of asking for specific changes?

As for walls, they'll be implementing a cover system at some point... while it may influence your enjoyment of PvP, it isn't PvP specific.

This has nothing to do about introducing new players to PvP like your pool analogy would suggest.

I know that's not what you want to hear, but I'm compelled to say it... because it's one thing you know about it and another to understand it:
It's really hard to sympathize with someone flagged for PvP when they don't want to PvP.... kinda makes the entire process useless, doesn't it? I mean, I'm not going to tell you to unflag but why are you flagged in the first place? You CAN PvP without going to the Oracle; all you have to do is go to a designated PvP zone.

You live in a PvP town, what the hell were you expecting?

This is very similar to non-PvP people being able to attack PvPers and people wanting to use their non-combat bar in combat; it's contradictory by nature.

 

For walls to act like walls. For doors to act like doors. Currently there are bugs.

I also have the expectation of meaningful pvp. I played Darkfall for several months and it wasn't very much fun and didn't make much sense. Mainly because the population was extremely low. The only people playing the game were large guilds, and they were off fighting in areas of the game I couldn't get to as a solo player (even if I did, I would be killed immediately, all my stuff looted, and sent back to the new person zone which was empty and boring). It reminds me a lot of the Shardfalls. Boring places where no one really goes because they don't want to risk being killed.

For all the big talk on the forums by a few players, I never see most of those people when I'm in multiplayer unless it's on the overland map. That's their "time out" that's where they "rest" or go "afk" because it's safe. If the overland map didn't allow people that were flagged from being immune to pvp attacks and theft, I'm guessing a few more people would see the points I'm making a lot more clearly.

It's not even remotely similar to that. I'm actually very much against that for the same reasons I want to have a progressive PVP system based on risk vs. reward and not on/off.

 

@Baron Drocis Fondorlatos Don't get me wrong, I want the same kind of experience you're looking for. I'm just highly questioning the OP.

The similarities to "non-PvP people being able to attack PvPers" is due to the fact that you're flagged PvP, but you don't "always" want to be subject to it. You're telling the system you want to fight, but you don't want to fight, you want to read a book or craft an item or go AFK... just like the PvEer is telling the system that he doesn't want to fight, yet has the ability to attack a PvPer nonetheless.

This is the part of the OP that I've been asking specifics about.

You say that rules don't change much in order to accomplish something like this but you need to force that behavior. If I want to hunt you down and kill your character, telling me that you're safe because you're in your own house and just want to read a book isn't going to convince me to stop... meaning you have to modify the rules for these edge cases.

...and you listed 4 "layers" of these edge cases.

You really think guards will come rushing to your house to stop me or punish me? You really think guards will give a damn in a PvP town?

You're talking about risk vs rewards but, in this hypothetical situation, I just took the effort of hunting you down in your own home... why should your risk be smaller than mine? Because you're reading a book?

You're in a PvP town!

Do you not see the conundrum of what you're asking?